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| Post Number: 41
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CatKnight 
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 06 2002,05:36 |
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so...your answer is, no, poor black families should not be able to choose what school to send their kids to. k just checking.
if a school is not accountable to anyone, it doesn't matter how much money they get, they will still continue to screw up, because they get paid to.
if schools only get money when they do well, they will improve. if the principle and all the teachers would be fired if all the students left because no one wanted to go to their school, then the system would work. the school would either improve or be shut down, and another school would take its place and try again.
| Quote | | Vouchers can create the real possibility of a cessation to public schools. |
and you're afraid of that...why?
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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| Post Number: 42
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Dysorderia
Kryten 2X4B 523P
Group: Members
Posts: 1061
Joined: Jul. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 06 2002,05:45 |
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| Quote (CatKnight @ 06 June 2002,00:36) | | so...your answer is, no, poor black families should not be able to choose what school to send their kids to. k just checking. |
CK is twisting people's words out of proportion...
why does this not surprise me in the least?
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Sir? May I recommend I load myself into the reverse-thrust tubes and you use my body as decoy-fodder? This will, of course leave me splattered across deep space and unable to complete today's laundry, for which I apologise in advance.
[url=http://www.kr1cket.com]www.kr1cket.com[/url]
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| Post Number: 43
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Bozeman
Guardian
Group: Members
Posts: 762
Joined: Jun. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 06 2002,15:18 |
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| Quote (CatKnight @ 06 June 2002,01:36) | so...your answer is, no, poor black families should not be able to choose what school to send their kids to. k just checking.
if a school is not accountable to anyone, it doesn't matter how much money they get, they will still continue to screw up, because they get paid to.
if schools only get money when they do well, they will improve. if the principle and all the teachers would be fired if all the students left because no one wanted to go to their school, then the system would work. the school would either improve or be shut down, and another school would take its place and try again.
| Quote | | Vouchers can create the real possibility of a cessation to public schools. |
and you're afraid of that...why? |
Poor families can still choose private schools, but they'd have to get the money somewhere else. It's not fair to just ask for your taxes back.
If a school is doing poorly because of lack of funds, how will they do better to get funds? They don't get paid to screw up.
If all the students in a district quit, along with all the teachers, then there's no school for a lot of kids. I doubt the private schools could handle the influx. Another school woudn't take it's place, that's not how that works. Schools aren't free markets, theyr'e SCHOOLS! Treating them like abusiness is going to screw over a generation of kids.
I'm afraid that if there are only private schools, then they'll be so flooded with kids, they'll raise prices. (supply & demand) Because prices are so high, some kids get to go to school, and some don't. THAT IS WHY PUBLIC SCHOOLS WORK! Kids get to go to school. Even learning in a janitor's closet is better than nothing.
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It's the pop-o-matic bubble, motherfucker!
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| Post Number: 44
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CatKnight
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 06 2002,19:12 |
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funny that you are critsizing my speculations with more speculation.
It's not fair to just ask for your taxes back.
funny, I didn't think it was fair to take taxes to begin with...
If a school is doing poorly because of lack of funds, how will they do better to get funds?
they aren't doing poorly due to lack of funds, I have made that point with lucidity several times.
I doubt the private schools could handle the influx. Another school woudn't take it's place, that's not how that works. Schools aren't free markets, theyr'e SCHOOLS! Treating them like abusiness is going to screw over a generation of kids.
I don't care about what you doubt will happen, because you are hardly an expert. Maybe I'm not either, but atleast I do a little digging first.
And you just blurted out my point right there. You are right, schools aren't in the free market, and they should be. Name me ONE government program that has ever outperformed a private program, and I will pay pal you $5.
Oh yeah, and our generation of kids are ALREADY screwed up.
I'm afraid that if there are only private schools, then they'll be so flooded with kids, they'll raise prices. (supply & demand) Because prices are so high, some kids get to go to school, and some don't. THAT IS WHY PUBLIC SCHOOLS WORK! Kids get to go to school.
I want everyone to go to school and get an education too, it is YOU who does not, as previously stated.
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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| Post Number: 45
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incubus
mack daddy
Group: Admins
Posts: 1316
Joined: May 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 06 2002,20:11 |
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| Quote (Dysorderia @ 05 June 2002,21:45) | CK is twisting people's words out of proportion...
why does this not surprise me in the least? |
shut up about catknight
cheers
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Quit your job. Start a fight. Prove you're alive. If you don't claim your
humanity you will become a statistic. You have been warned ....... Tyler
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| Post Number: 46
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Bozeman
Guardian
Group: Members
Posts: 762
Joined: Jun. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 06 2002,22:17 |
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| Quote (CatKnight @ 06 June 2002,15:12) | funny that you are critsizing my speculations with more speculation.
It's not fair to just ask for your taxes back.
funny, I didn't think it was fair to take taxes to begin with...
If a school is doing poorly because of lack of funds, how will they do better to get funds?
they aren't doing poorly due to lack of funds, I have made that point with lucidity several times.
I doubt the private schools could handle the influx. Another school woudn't take it's place, that's not how that works. Schools aren't free markets, theyr'e SCHOOLS! Treating them like abusiness is going to screw over a generation of kids.
I don't care about what you doubt will happen, because you are hardly an expert. Maybe I'm not either, but atleast I do a little digging first.
And you just blurted out my point right there. You are right, schools aren't in the free market, and they should be. Name me ONE government program that has ever outperformed a private program, and I will pay pal you $5.
Oh yeah, and our generation of kids are ALREADY screwed up.
I'm afraid that if there are only private schools, then they'll be so flooded with kids, they'll raise prices. (supply & demand) Because prices are so high, some kids get to go to school, and some don't. THAT IS WHY PUBLIC SCHOOLS WORK! Kids get to go to school.
I want everyone to go to school and get an education too, it is YOU who does not, as previously stated. |
California used to have a government run power system. Then it deregulated it. Prices shot up, and there are rolling blackouts. Enron collapsed. The media was in an uproar.
This is just one case, but you only need one valid counterexample. I don't know how you will paypal me $5, but forget it. I wouldn't want to deprive you of the money you worked to earn.
Despite your claims that it is untrue, some schools are run down, and have substandard supplies. These are real problems which could be fixed by money.
You say you want every kid to go to school, but what do you tell little johnny whose parents can't afford private school after the public sector has been privatized? Sorry?
I want children to get an education, which is why I support local millages, and advocate public schools. Anyone can go to public school, but you need money to go to private school. That is the major reason public schools haven't already been privatized, it wouldn't work. You don't need to be an expert to see that if it costs money, some people might not be able to afford it.
About taxes: A long time ago there was an evil king who taxed his colonies without representation. The colonies rose up, and made their own country, without any taxes. But then the government couldn't run. So they amended their constitution, and now that country is the most powerful nation on earth. The end. Goodnight boys and girls, and don't let the bedbugs bite.
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It's the pop-o-matic bubble, motherfucker!
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| Post Number: 47
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Wiley
©0®ÞØ®4+3 whØ®3
Group: Members
Posts: 1268
Joined: Oct. 2001
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Posted on: Jun. 06 2002,23:19 |
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| Quote (CatKnight @ 06 June 2002,11:12) | | Name me ONE government program that has ever outperformed a private program, and I will pay pal you $5. |
NASA - I don't see private companies getting too many shuttles in orbit or selling tickets to NSYNC guys for 20 million a pop! Just for one ride ..I call that out performing.
FAA - Name a private company who can see any plane anywhere at any time.
The Post Office ...still cheaper after all these years and FedEx and UPS can't touch them in volume.
The US Federal Prison System - Don't count it out, the federal prison system keeps more inmates locked away then all the private re-habilitation centers put together.
Army - If I wanted to invade a small country, do you think a private security company could accommodate me? I think not. Our government run military program is the best in the world.
WhooHooo ....I'm gonna be rich!!!
Seriously though, the government has an advantage in that it is not accountable to shareholders and has near limitless working capital. Granted, government programs are not very efficient when it comes to using money but they can turn out some programs that work in areas that just can't be privatized. The school system must be re-worked, that we all agree on. But seeing how EVERY child needs to have access to a good education there is no way to privatize the system. As far as vouchers go, here is my view:
Vouchers won't help the poor because they won't cover the price of the private school ...not in the slightest bit. Why? Enter supply and demand. Lets say that private school costs $1000 a month and everybody now gets a $1000 school voucher every month. Well the rich still are willing to pay the same $1000 they were paying before the voucher system and so the private school just bumps up the price to $2000 a month ....with no impact on attendance. The poor are sitting twiddling their thumbs with a nice new shiny $1000 voucher that won't buy them anything. The voucher system is flawed ...it doesn't give anybody a choice that they don't have today. Simple economics. If you give everybody a 5% raise then the price of goods and services just goes up 5% to match.
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There's a sucker born every minute ...but swallowers are hard to find.
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| Post Number: 48
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Dysorderia
Kryten 2X4B 523P
Group: Members
Posts: 1061
Joined: Jul. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 07 2002,00:06 |
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| Quote (incubus @ 06 June 2002,15:11) | | Quote (Dysorderia @ 05 June 2002,21:45) | CK is twisting people's words out of proportion...
why does this not surprise me in the least? |
shut up about catknight
cheers |
eh?
since when did you start agreeing with CK, incubus?
or am i asking a stupid question?
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Sir? May I recommend I load myself into the reverse-thrust tubes and you use my body as decoy-fodder? This will, of course leave me splattered across deep space and unable to complete today's laundry, for which I apologise in advance.
[url=http://www.kr1cket.com]www.kr1cket.com[/url]
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| Post Number: 49
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Darth Liberus
Emperor of Detnet
Group: Members
Posts: 2246
Joined: Jan. 1970
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Posted on: Jun. 07 2002,01:06 |
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Wiley, sometimes your reasoning shocks me... but other time you hit it on the head.
the free market is not the answer to everything!
There have been scores of cases where public school districts turned over school administration to a private company... and in virtually every case, the schools went downhill faster than you can say "profiteering."
Then the districts had to spend millions of $$$ to get out of the contract, essentially buying their own district back.
That's what you get for swallowing the Big Lie of "The free market solves everything."
Government doesn't have to please the shareholders, it doesn't have to make a profit, it doesn't have to keep an eye on market share...
Having worked for the government, I can tell you that most government workers work really hard, and they are very proud of the job they do. The biggest problem isn't the front-line workers. It's not the lady who pulls down $80K a year to type in your info at the DMV, or the janitor who makes $30 an hour picking up the garbage. I know from direct experience that those people know they're getting a great deal, and they work damn hard because of it.
The problem is too much management. The micromanagement fad isn't confined to the private sector. There's nothing like a bunch of bored, overpaid authority figures who know they're useless to ruin an otherwise good thing.
Vouchers are yet another attempt by the Religious Right to force their beliefs on the rest of us, or at the very least force the government to pay to send their kids to religious schools and degrade the quality of that darn Secular Humanist education while they're at it.
And they know it.
Remember, these are the same folks who are trying to get the schools to put disclaimers on evolution (if not eliminate it entirely) and teach Scientific Creationism to your kids.
As for standardized testing... California schools used to have an awful lot of local control. For years, we had the #1 school system in the nation.
About thirty years ago we implemented standardized testing and a standardized curricula, and the quality of our schools immediately started to plummet. Teachers could no longer identify the needs and values of a community and use those things to develop their courses. Instead, they had to follow a State-imposed curricula and teach to the tests.
In short, they could no longer do their jobs.
Our school system is now #48 out of 50.
That's what a blind belief in "accountability" gets you.
Edited by Darth Liberus on Jan. 01 1970,01:00
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"let's travel around with our laptops, plug in, and destroy the very fabric of modern reality." -a2n3d7y
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| Post Number: 50
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CatKnight
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 07 2002,05:19 |
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tons of crap:
Boze:
| Quote | | California used to have a government run power system. Then it deregulated it. Prices shot up, and there are rolling blackouts. Enron collapsed. The media was in an uproar. |
thats because deregulation never actually happened.
| Quote | | You say you want every kid to go to school, but what do you tell little johnny whose parents can't afford private school after the public sector has been privatized? Sorry? |
are you not listening to me? read previous post.
| Quote | | . But then the government couldn't run. So they amended their constitution, and now that country is the most powerful nation on earth. The end. Goodnight boys and girls, and don't let the bedbugs bite. |
that is totally fallacious! you are insinuating that because we have federal taxes, we are the most powerful world in the nation, as if the two were connected. wrong!
Wiley:
| Quote | | NASA - I don't see private companies getting too many shuttles in orbit or selling tickets to NSYNC guys for 20 million a pop! Just for one ride ..I call that out performing. |
where do you think nasa gets all their crap? the space shuttle was built by boeing and lockheed martin. nasa is just the bureaucracy part. they contract private companies.
| Quote | | FAA - Name a private company who can see any plane anywhere at any time. |
the company that built their radar equipment? you are missing the point of my challenge, you are naming government programs that have no private competition, because the government won't allow competition, just like public schools.
| Quote | | The Post Office ...still cheaper after all these years and FedEx and UPS can't touch them in volume. |
umm...the post office is crap compared to ups and fed ex for packages. and they have no competetion for regular mail, so no comparison there.
| Quote | | The US Federal Prison System - Don't count it out, the federal prison system keeps more inmates locked away then all the private re-habilitation centers put together. |
prisons are run by private companies.
| Quote | | Army - If I wanted to invade a small country, do you think a private security company could accommodate me? I think not. Our government run military program is the best in the world. |
army is the only one that is an even close to valid answer, however, that is the one program that government is supposted to run! so no credit there.
the government has an advantage in that it is not accountable to shareholders
you say that is an advantage? how so??
and has near limitless working capital
certainly, you jest. there's no such thing as a free lunch.
Simple economics.
too simple. you are wrong there.
DSL:
| Quote | There have been scores of cases where public school districts turned over school administration to a private company... and in virtually every case, the schools went downhill faster than you can say "profiteering."
Then the districts had to spend millions of $$$ to get out of the contract, essentially buying their own district back.
That's what you get for swallowing the Big Lie of "The free market solves everything." |
SHOW ME ONE EXAMPLE, OR STOP SPOUTING YOUR BS. I'm sick of this bullshitting with no sources.
| Quote | | Having worked for the government, I can tell you that most government workers work really hard, and they are very proud of the job they do. |
jesus christ man! you are fucking crazy! you have NO idea what you are talking about. there is NO ONE that would agree with you on that statement, ANYWHERE.
| Quote | | and degrade the quality of that darn Secular Humanist education while they're at it. |
degrade it down to what? I think they have hit rock bottom as it is. Besides, even if you don't agree with the religious types, that doesn't mean the secular types are any closer to the truth. They still preach global warming as truth, when it has been proven to not exist (new topic later).
| Quote | As for standardized testing... California schools used to have an awful lot of local control. For years, we had the #1 school system in the nation.
About thirty years ago we implemented standardized testing and a standardized curricula, and the quality of our schools immediately started to plummet. Teachers could no longer identify the needs and values of a community and use those things to develop their courses. Instead, they had to follow a State-imposed curricula and teach to the tests. |
if you are suggesting that having kids take standardized tests made them stupid, you are almost as bad as boze. what really happened was all of the kids were indoctrinated instead of educated, but no one knew until they took the tests. just because you don't like the results, doesn't mean you can blame the test.
Edited by CatKnight on Jan. 01 1970,01:00
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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