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| Post Number: 11
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CatKnight 
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 04 2002,02:01 |
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fine by me except for "Take money out of defense, and put it into the education system." 
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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| Post Number: 12
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damien_s_lucifer
Emperor of Detnet
Group: Members
Posts: 33
Joined: Jan. 1970
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Posted on: Jun. 04 2002,02:18 |
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a nation filled with well-paid, well-educated schoolteachers... now THAT would be interesting.
something tells me the "free market" isn't going to produce that, though.
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| Post Number: 13
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CatKnight
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 04 2002,03:03 |
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why wouldn't it? you are assuming that the teachers are in a free market now, which they are by all means not. if teachers had to compete then only the best would get the jobs. schools would have an incentive to hire the best teachers, and to fire the worst, if they had to compete to stay open. because of today's teachers unions and the requirements for an education degree instead of a subject degree, teachers are getting worse and worse. because they are in a union, and because most parents don't have a choice of what school to send them to, there is no competition, therefore no free market.
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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| Post Number: 14
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demonk
The other white meat
Group: Members
Posts: 800
Joined: Aug. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 04 2002,04:16 |
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You are forgetting someting CK. It doesn't matter the quality of the teachers that are out there, the demand is high and is rising with no signs of it leveling off. Teacher demand is the highest is has ever been, and we don't see a bunch of people studying to be teachers. So, no matter how much you like to think that the free market will create a better education environment, it will not. All that will happen is that the more well funded (there's that term you don't like) schools will be able to attract the best teachers in the nation. The worst will go to the lowest funded ones. And who will goto the best schools? The wealthy because they can afford it. Who will be at the worst schools? The poor. So, your solution will aggrivate an already bad situation. The lucky few will be able to jump ship and get a better education, while the unwashed masses will be left to fight over the garbage that gets thrown out from the wealthy schools. Free market is a good thing, but it is not THE solution to all our problems.
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I'm just two people short of a threesome!
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| Post Number: 15
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CatKnight
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 04 2002,04:34 |
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you are looking at this problem from a logical point of view which is good normally. however, the department of education is far from logical. there are some loopholes in your argument because of this. you claim that the schools with the highest funding will recieve the best teachers. this is obviously not the case, as pointed out before, therefore there must be something interfering with the process. most likely government or teachers unions. you also claim that the rich white kids will end up going to the best funded schools. this is also not true, the rich white kids go to private schools, which usually run at a much lower cost then public schools. again, a telling sign that the free market is not in effect here.
basically, if the demand is very high, but the supply is non existant, only government could be the cause, because people aren't that stupid.
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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| Post Number: 16
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demonk
The other white meat
Group: Members
Posts: 800
Joined: Aug. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 04 2002,04:49 |
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| Quote | | basically, if the demand is very high, but the supply is non existant, only government could be the cause, because people aren't that stupid. |
Or it could be that the job sucks. Being a teacher is one of the toughest, least rewarding professions out there. And since it takes a major investment in training before you can be a teacher, it's no wonder that there is such a shortage in supply. Just blaming the government doesn't take into account the complexeties of life.
Here's something you could answer for me. I don't really know how private schools operate since I didn't goto one, maybe you have more informaton about this than I. I'm thinking that since private schools are just that, private, they can do things with their money that public schools aren't allowed to, such as investing and buying stock. What if one of the reasons that the cost per student is lower for private schools is because they can suppliment their income from sources that public can't? If this is true, then here is one problem that we could address without having to scrap the entire system. Again, it is all conditional on my premis that private schools have sources of income that public schools aren't allowed to take advantage of. What do you think?
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I'm just two people short of a threesome!
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| Post Number: 17
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CatKnight
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 04 2002,05:20 |
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you are still missing the whole point, which is that school's don't need exorbident amounts of money to operate well, and the ones that do recieve lots of money end up being the worst schools. funding is not the problem.
as for:
| Quote | | Or it could be that the job sucks. Being a teacher is one of the toughest, least rewarding professions out there. |
that's just bull. the best teachers are the ones who love their job and love teaching. they may not get paid a lot, but they love what they do so it is very rewarding to them. if you are a teacher, and you think your job sucks, then you shouldn't be teaching at all!!
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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| Post Number: 18
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demonk
The other white meat
Group: Members
Posts: 800
Joined: Aug. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 04 2002,06:57 |
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Would you want to go teach CK? I doubt it. I know I don't want to teach. And it has nothing to do with the pay either. It's the same for all professions. It takes a special breed to teach. The point I was making is that there aren't enough people like that. If there were, they would already be teaching and we wouldn't have a shortage. If a person wants to teach in this country and they have the creditials, they can find a job (usually).
To address your other point about the worst schools having the most money, I still want you to show me more than just two schools. I can go right now and show you plenty of schools where they are full of good, dedicated teachers who could do a better job if they had more money to spend. But so far you have only showed me two schools where the opposite is true. I'm willing to listen to your side as I have proven so far, so please, provide more than just two examples. A sample population of just 2 is usually concidered poor data to base an entire hypothesis on, so more will really help to strength your case.
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I'm just two people short of a threesome!
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| Post Number: 19
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kuru
Detonate.net's 9mm wielding geek-hit-Goddess
Group: Members
Posts: 2566
Joined: Aug. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 04 2002,12:17 |
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Teaching does suck.
Ingrateful students who hate you and think their entire mission on this planet is to make your life a living hell every single day. Complete and utter disrespect for you tied to the attitude 'I don't have to do what you say.'
Every freaking day is a constant fight with students to try to get them to even SHOW UP when they're required to. Getting them to do any kind of homework is next to impossible, as a teacher you spend about as much time at home doing work (unpaid) as you do at work because there's always some kind of planning or something that has to be done which doesn't fit into the 7.5 hours a day you're paid to be at work.
So many people start out loving it, but if you give it a couple of months, you end up  and ready to tear every single hair out of your head one at a time.
It's absolutely insane how fast burnout happens when you deal with the conditions teachers deal with. And supposedly I teach adults who aren't forced to be where they are. They're the ones who CHOSE to go on to school. I imagine it's only worse with students who wouldn't be there except for force of law.
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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost
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| Post Number: 20
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Nikita
Princess of Darkness Spy. Assassin. Seductress.
Group: Members
Posts: 937
Joined: Apr. 2001
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Posted on: Jun. 04 2002,16:39 |
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I wouldn't want to teach either. Hell no.
My mom teaches and she sometimes has to buy school supplies for the kids out of her own pocket. Knowing that she does that, I have to resist the urge to kick in the teeth of some screaming, misbehaving brat when I visit her at work.
I'm glad I have a research assistant contract instead of a teaching one. Never again do I want to deal with arrogant pre-meds who think they know everything, lesson plans, grading, proctoring exams, office hours (where nobody will show up most of the time and you get mobbed right before exams).
My roomie is a TA for German and she has total slackers who do absofuckinlutely nothing and whine "hey, I deserve better than a C!" when they really deserve an F.
To those that teach, damn you have guts, bravo, good luck, and fail those who deserve it.
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Mad scientist, sexy engineer
Who's yo Mommy?
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