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| Post Number: 21
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CatKnight 
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 04 2002,20:24 |
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There are 200 something public schools in philly, and 100 or so in DC, most of which have extremely poor standardized test rankings.
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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| Post Number: 22
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DuSTman
70% water in a flexible container.
Group: Members
Posts: 797
Joined: May 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 04 2002,20:49 |
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I think the way education is handled in general needs a bit of a looking at.
Exams are not an effective means of discovering what a student knows. The point of education is to commit to long term memory the concepts and facts of how things work in subjects that will be required in the workplace. Therein is the point : Long term memory. Something I learn while cramming on the morning of the exam and then forget the day after is of no interest at all to employers or other education establishments that will be evaluating the student on the grade from the exams. But sure enough, that'd get the mark.
Exams also tend to become the whole point of education. Do badly on an exam and you fail the course (never mind that you may have done badly for other reasons, like being extremely tired and stressed and distracted by having an extremely sweaty ass crack (as always happens to me in exams)). Never mind that you'll take away a lot of valuable understanding of the subject.
In my GCSE (high school) we weren't given much in the way of data in exams.A constant here, a table of hardness values comparing chalk and fingernails here, but no equations. Do I remember the equations now as a result of that? Yes.
In my A-level they gave you the equations on a data sheet in the exam.. Do I remember the equations now? Mostly no. Why? Because i didn't need to actually learn them for the exam..
Peoples minds are different. Different people learn best by different means and batching people together into classes will only result in lowered efficiency for everyone's learning. Clearly it is necessary due to staff concerns, but a sort of teach-yourself paradigm may be profitable overall.
Of course some means of assesment is necessary, but for accuracy sake, the effect of short term memory should be removed (eg by not telling students when the exam is and suprising them. The only marks they'd get on the exam would be for things they actually *knew*)
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Jackdaws love my big sphinx of quartz
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| Post Number: 23
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demonk
The other white meat
Group: Members
Posts: 800
Joined: Aug. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 04 2002,22:05 |
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| Quote (CatKnight @ 04 June 2002,12:24) | | There are 200 something public schools in philly, and 100 or so in DC, most of which have extremely poor standardized test rankings. |
I know that DC is something like 70% blacks, and while I don't know the exact number for Philly I'm pretty sure it is also high. So, the lowest grades in the country are from schools in areas that are predominatly black. Hmmm, I smell something other than just your "more money makes schools worst" hypothesis.
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I'm just two people short of a threesome!
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| Post Number: 24
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TheTaxMan
Controversial Thug
Group: Members
Posts: 874
Joined: Apr. 2001
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Posted on: Jun. 04 2002,23:54 |
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Possible Solutions:
Fund all public schools the same, and increase funding over all. All schools should be getting more money (mostly going to teacher salaries) than the richest public school now.
Do not give "bonus money" based on standardized testing.
Remove standardized testing completely. These tests serve no purpose, but the government seems to love them. I know the President filled the Texas school system w/ them, and it really was nothing more than a detriment to actual learning (I don't care about numbers of graduating seniors, they -hurt- learning).
Fail the students who deserve it. Burger Flippers will still be needed after the education system improves.
Leave private schools alone. It's mosty an elitist or religious thing now and it should probably remain such.
What I think will result (short and long term):
More teachers => Smaller Classes => Better Learning Environment => More Learning => More Learned People (pardon for not remembering symbol that refelcts direct propotionality, I'm a product of US schools).
Some schools will continue to be worse (lower percentage graduating seniors). This can then be attributed to another thing, such as environment/parenting. Only the stupid will blame it on the schools. However, I think in the extreme long term, the schools will even out, no way to actually prove it tho.
More learned people! Only good can result from this (unless you delve into conspiracy!  ).
All I care to think up now, but it seems resonable from these eyes.
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Four billion years of evolution and this is all we have to show for it?
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| Post Number: 25
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CatKnight
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 05 2002,01:15 |
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Taxman, you propose we cover up the problem and pretend it doesn't exist, instead of finding out exactly what the problem is and trying to fix it. You just stated exactly the actions that would plunge our public and higher education systems into chaos. Remove all incentive and accountability, and then blur the lines between the stupid and the smart. You are the grown-up kindergardener who was taught "When the system is fair, everyone wins!". This statement is complete bollox, because if the system IS fair, then everyone CAN'T win. In order for everyone to win, the system must be unfair and give advantages to those who aren't as smart. If the system was fair, then only the smartest would go to college and the rest would go to technical schools or whatever. You are one of those bleeding-heart liberals who feels sad because the stupid don't get to go to college, so you try to change the system so that everyone can get in. That is why our education is going to crap.
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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| Post Number: 26
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CatKnight
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 05 2002,01:21 |
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| Quote | | Hmmm, I smell something other than just your "more money makes schools worst" hypothesis. |
well, you tell me. I was one of the 5% of white students at an overwhelmingly predominant black and hispanic school. I did rediculously well without even trying, while the rest of the students did very poor on extremely easy curved assessments. For a county wide algebra test, the AVERAGE score for my school was 28% (I got a perfect score, it was very easy). Most of the schools in the county got under 40%, while the honors high school for science people got 60% average (because it was half magnet and half locals). So, you tell me, what IS the problem?
(note: I know what the problem is, I want to hear what you think first, based on my previous post.)
(note2: my school was a brand brand new building (my class was the first to graduate from it), and we had rediculous amounts of money. we had 3 computer labs with 50 brand new gateways each, a T3 line, a 32" tv in ever classroom, all teachers had a computer for electronically recording attendance and grades, etc)
Edited by CatKnight on Jan. 01 1970,01:00
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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| Post Number: 27
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TheTaxMan
Controversial Thug
Group: Members
Posts: 874
Joined: Apr. 2001
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Posted on: Jun. 05 2002,03:37 |
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| Quote (CatKnight @ 04 June 2002,17:15) | | Taxman, you propose we cover up the problem and pretend it doesn't exist, instead of finding out exactly what the problem is and trying to fix it. You just stated exactly the actions that would plunge our public and higher education systems into chaos. Remove all incentive and accountability, and then blur the lines between the stupid and the smart. You are the grown-up kindergardener who was taught "When the system is fair, everyone wins!". This statement is complete bollox, because if the system IS fair, then everyone CAN'T win. In order for everyone to win, the system must be unfair and give advantages to those who aren't as smart. If the system was fair, then only the smartest would go to college and the rest would go to technical schools or whatever. You are one of those bleeding-heart liberals who feels sad because the stupid don't get to go to college, so you try to change the system so that everyone can get in. That is why our education is going to crap. |
Wtf? You claim I said the opposite of what I really did.
I said fail the idiots, and don't give them benefits over everyone (which would be a very bleeding heart thing to do) else.
The incentive is that people won't be as dumb as fuck as they are now. That should be incentive enough.
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Four billion years of evolution and this is all we have to show for it?
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| Post Number: 28
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TheTaxMan
Controversial Thug
Group: Members
Posts: 874
Joined: Apr. 2001
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Posted on: Jun. 05 2002,03:41 |
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| Quote (CatKnight @ 04 June 2002,17:21) | | Quote | | Hmmm, I smell something other than just your "more money makes schools worst" hypothesis. |
well, you tell me. I was one of the 5% of white students at an overwhelmingly predominant black and hispanic school. I did rediculously well without even trying, while the rest of the students did very poor on extremely easy curved assessments. For a county wide algebra test, the AVERAGE score for my school was 28% (I got a perfect score, it was very easy). Most of the schools in the county got under 40%, while the honors high school for science people got 60% average (because it was half magnet and half locals). So, you tell me, what IS the problem?
(note: I know what the problem is, I want to hear what you think first, based on my previous post.)
(note2: my school was a brand brand new building (my class was the first to graduate from it), and we had rediculous amounts of money. we had 3 computer labs with 50 brand new gateways each, a T3 line, a 32" tv in ever classroom, all teachers had a computer for electronically recording attendance and grades, etc) |
The problem is people don't teach. They babysit.
Don't give the school system money, give the teachers money.
Stop teaching the test and teach -math-. If someone doesn't want to learn, fail them until they see the reasons they have to. When they're 18, they'll leave the school system and be a burger flipper. Too fucking bad.
You gave a generic respone to my post w/o actually reading it, it seems.
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Four billion years of evolution and this is all we have to show for it?
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| Post Number: 29
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CatKnight
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 05 2002,04:24 |
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It's not that I didn't read your post, it's that you don't really know what you are talking about. You contradicted yourself in terms of what action should be taken. You said schools shouldn't recieve bonuses for improving their education, and that schools should abolish standardized testing altogether, and then you said schools should fail the stupid students and teach better.
If standardized tests are banned, who is to prevent schools from making their standards so low, that no one fails (current situation in DC and philly)? Especially if there are no consequences for failing (no standardized test = no basis for comparison, no bonuses = no penalties).
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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| Post Number: 30
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TheTaxMan
Controversial Thug
Group: Members
Posts: 874
Joined: Apr. 2001
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Posted on: Jun. 05 2002,04:37 |
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Ok, I assume most people here have taken a good math test at some point in their life (esp. during high school). People know (esp. teachers that have degrees in said subject) what good testing is. If there is no standard, and no favoritism about testing involving funding, then there is no reason to deviate from the standard. You teach it because that is the course.
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Four billion years of evolution and this is all we have to show for it?
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