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| Post Number: 51
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demonk 
The other white meat
Group: Members
Posts: 800
Joined: Aug. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 07 2002,05:55 |
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<arguing style of CK>
Everything you just said is total crap! Man, your stupidity astounds me anew every day! Since you don't agree with me, you are completely wrong. And I don't care if you said one thing, I'm going to act like you said something different but similar that I can easily make fun of and therefore dismiss you entire post as crap. I'm right, your wrong, when will you people realize this?!?!?! Bow before me, for I am CatKnight, the all knowing, all right physics god!
</arguing style of CK>
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I'm just two people short of a threesome!
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| Post Number: 52
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Bozeman
Guardian
Group: Members
Posts: 762
Joined: Jun. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 07 2002,07:18 |
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What? You made a post? I'm going to criticize you because every little anecdote you mentioned isn't properly cited! I'm not going to cite anything! I don't have to! I'm right! Your'e refuting what I say? HAH! I'll just pretend you don't understand me, and that you're afraid to answer me!
Now that I have ranted a bit, onto the retort.
Yes, the deregulation happened. Companies in California are fully capable of producing energy, even during summer when energy consumption is highest. (Air conditioning is a bitch) There is still not enough to go around. Why? It's more "profitable" to keep prices as they are now. Too bad grandma, you'll just have to die of heat exhauston.
*sigh* I'm gonna try once more. We're going to play make believe. Lets go to CK's magical fantasy world where all the schools are private. Now, let's say they charge you X dollars to enroll your kid. X dollars isn't too much, but it's a bit. Now, let's look at a low income family. Let's pretend they make minimum wage, and have 3 kids. Now, let's also pretend that with living expenses and all other costs of living besides school, their disposable income is less than 3x. One (or two or three) of their kids can't go to school becase it's too expensive, even if X is a reasonable amount. Now, let's go back to the real world. All of the kids can go to school, as long as it's local, for free! You see, CK, private school systems screw over the working poor, which is why we need public schools.
Oh, and I was being REAL serious about the fairy tale. Besides, you missed the point. The whole biggest nation thing is irrelevant. The point is, with no taxes, the government can't run. I'd rather pay a little of those "unfair" taxes than see what happens with no federal government. Uh oh! Here comes the Michigan Millitia!
Yeah, NASA is all private companies, working under a buerocracy. *snicker* That's why NASA employs extremely talented astrophysicists and physicists to do research and run experiments. I think you're confusing who makes the toys with who plays with them.
Uh, yeah, the company that BUILT it... They sure can see lots of planes... What was their name again? To whom are they accountable? What are their responsibilites? Why are they the same as the FAA in any way? THEY MAKE EQUIPMENT! The FAA uses that equipment to monitor planes.
Post office IS cheaper, and has more volume. Some other services are faster, but how exactly has the post office failed?
Not every prison is private, and have you even heard RUMORS about our prison systems today? Watch OZ, it may be fiction, but art is imitating life. The series is based on how bad prisons are.
Why would you give no credit to the army, just because the government is supposed to run it? That doesn't make sense, theyr'e supposed to have a post office, a criminal justice(prison) system, and a whole bunch of other things, like infrastructure. I don't see how "it's supposed to be like that" disqualifies the statement. Please clarify.
Your'e yelling at DL just because he wasn't specific?
"Mr. Kettle, you're just too black."
"Well fuck you Mr. Pot!"
My roomate John works at the Avian Disease and Oncology government laboratory on MSU campus. He works 9 to 5 monday to friday, AND goes in for hours at a time on weekends, and after his shift is over on weekdays, sometimes AFTER MIDNIGHT. I'd say he works pretty damn hard for the government. He's pretty proud to be doing research for the government at MSU too. Hey! I just used a SPECIFIC EXAPMLE! BOOYA!
I dunno, education can go down a lot further, by teaching only abstinence education, without birth control or reproductive information. Hell, let's teach actual creationism rather than even hinting at natural selection. I know! Let's teach JUST THE BIBLE! AND MAKE EVERYONE PAY TO GO TO SCHOOL! See? We CAN sink a LOT lower!
Tests can't make you stupid, but curricula sure can. You see, CK, what DL was saying was that because there was a test, teachers adapted their curricula to cater to the test, not to inform the students. Plus, you CAN blame tests if theyr'e bad tests. It's possible to do tests wrong. My friend Matt who's going into education (because he loves teaching) told me about how NOT to make a test. There are certain techniques that can help avoid misleading or unnaturally difficult questions that can skew results. Tests can be fallible. I'm not saying the California tests ARE wrong, in all probability theyr'e not too bad. But just because it is a test doesn't mean the results are meaningful. And besiedes, DL's point was that introducing the tests changed the way classes were taught, for the worse. Whether the test was good or not is irrelevant. The curricula could not adapt to the children's needs, it was simply put there.
*PHEW!* Long post! And because CK is going to take each point and draw misleading statements from them using faulty reasoning, the next one might have to be longer.
Scotty: "The keyboard is over heating, captain!"
Kirk: "Scotty, I need 45 words per minute, fast, or we're all DEAD!"
/end Star Trek parody
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It's the pop-o-matic bubble, motherfucker!
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| Post Number: 53
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CatKnight
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 07 2002,18:47 |
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no, deregulation did not happen.
when did I ever say that people should pay for their own education? never. so stfu about kids not being able to afford private schools. I think the government should still pay for it, just not run it.
| Quote | | Hey! I just used a SPECIFIC EXAPMLE! BOOYA! |
*sigh* i am getting sick and tired of you guys taking what I say out of context. When you make a general statement that "all government employees are nice and work hard", specific examples don't mean jack shit. I could care less whether your cousin bob or my mom (whom does work for the government) is hard working and loves their job. Take a look at a post office, or the DMV, etc, for better examples.
I don't think you can blame the SAT's for being an unfair test to californians when they are a perfectly fair test that gives accurate enough results for everyone else in the country.
blah more stuff later
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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| Post Number: 54
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CatKnight
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 07 2002,18:52 |
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as for nasa, the post office, the military, etc, I think you guys need to re-read the question.
| Quote | | Name me ONE government program that has ever outperformed a private program, and I will pay pal you $5. |
has nasa outperformed a private company equivalent? no, because there has been none. exactly my point.
has the post office outperformed a private mail company? no, because they have a monopoloy on regular mail. however, even for packages, UPS and FedEx are much better then USPS.
as for the military, they aren't supposed to be run by a private company (although private companies do make the gear). there is nothing in the constitution about a federal postal system, however, there are statements about a standing army for the protection of our citizenry.
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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| Post Number: 55
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demonk
The other white meat
Group: Members
Posts: 800
Joined: Aug. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 07 2002,20:02 |
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| Quote (CatKnight @ 07 June 2002,10:47) | | I don't think you can blame the SAT's for being an unfair test to californians when they are a perfectly fair test that gives accurate enough results for everyone else in the country. |
He's not referring to the SAT's. Those are a private run testing program anyway. He was referring to the tests that students at in grades 6, 8, 10, and probably earlier. These tests are used to determin exactly how well a school is performing. His point was that before these test, teachers actually taught subjects and would gladdly explore new ideas and subjects with their classes instead of just teaching the material needed to take the tests. Students were actually encouraged to learn and to explore this world that we are in. Now, they are told to sit down, shutup, and study pages 12-67. Ever seen how they teach class on Boston Public? That's how it used to be. It's not that way anymore, or at least not at any schools I've ever seen. There aren't any free form classes in this day and age.
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I'm just two people short of a threesome!
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| Post Number: 56
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chmod
Jedi Knight
Group: Members
Posts: 373
Joined: Jul. 2001
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Posted on: Jun. 07 2002,20:25 |
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| Quote | | Students were actually encouraged to learn and to explore this world that we are in. Now, they are told to sit down, shutup, and study pages 12-67. Ever seen how they teach class on Boston Public? That's how it used to be. It's not that way anymore, or at least not at any schools I've ever seen. There aren't any free form classes in this day and age. |
Sure, it would be great to let students "explore this world" as you put it, without pressures of learning the material for standardized testing, but there's a problem with that. If we just let teachers teach however the hell they wanted to, there would be no way of making sure that the students are learning, the teachers aren't being lazy, and that the school is working, and there would be even less accountability in the education system. Yes, standardized tests are a pain in the ass and they may distract classes from learning in more effective and engaging ways, but for the current structure of our education system they are a necessary evil.
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| Post Number: 57
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demonk
The other white meat
Group: Members
Posts: 800
Joined: Aug. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 07 2002,20:57 |
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What about letting the teachers be responsible to the prinicple, which is in turn responsible to the parents and the community the school is in? I would think this would allow more freedom for the teachers while making the schools MORE accountable because it's no longer some beuracrat off in DC deciding if the school is effective but the parents and the people who live and see the results of the school directly.
Here's something that I've had on my mind for a while now. I've heard many of the parents say that they never learned as much back in their day when they went to school. Stuff that students are learning now is stuff that many didn't learn until college, if at all. And in the material that they did learn back in the day, they learned a lot less about it and at a slower pace. So, if all this is true, then that means that the average student today is being asked to learn more material at a fast past and to a greater depth. While I think this is good, I also think it kind of skews how we look at schools. Yes, so the test scores are lower, but could that be because we are placing higher standards than were placed back in the 50's and 60's? I don't know, it's just something that I've wondered about.
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I'm just two people short of a threesome!
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| Post Number: 58
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Darth Liberus
Emperor of Detnet
Group: Members
Posts: 2246
Joined: Jan. 1970
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Posted on: Jun. 07 2002,22:08 |
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demonk, you took the words right out of my mouth 
With local control, teachers answered directly to the parents. If you, as a parent, weren't happy with the teacher's response, you could talk to the principal, or the superintendent, or the school board.
If none of those people satisfied you, you could vote the superintendent / school board out in the next general election, held every two years.
It worked very well.
There are still some schools, teachers, principals, superintendents, and districts that do what they can to hold on to the old system. When I was going through school, for example, most of my teachers taught however they damn well pleased. When test time came around, we'd spend a couple weeks cramming for them... basically, our teachers would tell us what was going to be tested on the exam and how to make really good educated guesses. Although we didn't get the highest scores that way, we all managed to pass.
I recently discovered that this system continues on to this day with the full faith and support of the parents. My niece has been in private schools her whole life, but recently her mom decided that her daughter wasn't getting the education she deserved, and if she was going to get a mediocre education anyway it may as well be a free one.
She went down to the public elementary school (my alma mater! to find out about registration and talk to the principal. She walked out of there with the feeling that her daughter is going to get a *much* better education there than at her private school... and her private school is one of the top-rated private schools in the area!
Why?
Because the principal told her that "our standard here is that third-graders should have no more than a half-hour to an hour of homework a night, and that there should be a couple nights a week where they don't have any. We feel that children gain much more from play time than they do from rote memorization. Our test scores are lower because of this, but we have a ton of parents from [a high-scoring neighbor district] fighting to get their kids into ours, and only a few parents in our district trying to get into theirs. So we think we're doing a pretty good job."
looks like the parents are voting with their feet, lol
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"let's travel around with our laptops, plug in, and destroy the very fabric of modern reality." -a2n3d7y
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| Post Number: 59
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Dysorderia
Kryten 2X4B 523P
Group: Members
Posts: 1061
Joined: Jul. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 08 2002,01:12 |
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| Quote (CatKnight @ 07 June 2002,13:47) | | *sigh* i am getting sick and tired of you guys taking what I say out of context. |
*sigh* we are already sick and tired of you taking what we say out of context.
turn-about is a bitch, eh CK?
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Sir? May I recommend I load myself into the reverse-thrust tubes and you use my body as decoy-fodder? This will, of course leave me splattered across deep space and unable to complete today's laundry, for which I apologise in advance.
[url=http://www.kr1cket.com]www.kr1cket.com[/url]
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| Post Number: 60
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incubus
mack daddy
Group: Admins
Posts: 1316
Joined: May 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 08 2002,01:58 |
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 6-->| Quote (Dysorderia @ 06 June 2002,166) | since when did you start agreeing with CK, incubus?
or am i asking a stupid question? |
Dysorderia,
It's not that I agree or disagree with CK, I just get wound up at your incessant slating of him. You just sit there throwing rocks at him and add nothing valid to the conversation except, "CK sucks! Everything CK says is wrong!"
Oh yeah, and what I may or may not think about CK is my own damn business.
That is all.
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Quit your job. Start a fight. Prove you're alive. If you don't claim your
humanity you will become a statistic. You have been warned ....... Tyler
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