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Topic: abortion< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
 Post Number: 121
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 14 2001,00:50  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Michael, how long did it take you to realize this? Everything is a circular argument. Absolutely everything. Except maybe math, but never mind that. Physics? Completely circular. It just works most of the time. Almost everything we believe in is a circular argument, because if we were to understand it on the highest possible level, we wouldnt need to define anything in any real terms, because we would all already understand it. The point of applying these circular arguments is to get an argument with fewer and fewer holes. perfect example. 2 circular arguments, Physics, and The Flat Earth Society (www.flatearth.org i think) physics i cant really explain, but if you know it, good, otherwise, ignore this. flat earth society has a circular agument that basically says the earth is flat, and its a 5 sided figure with a middle side, proving 5=6. its on the back of a giant turtle, and so we are all held to the earth by its animal magnetism. basically, its got lots of holes. which is why we use physics instead, much fewer holes.

a lot of people see the holes in christianity, and feel the same way about it as a physicist might feel about the flat earth society. the point is that some people have a hard time accepting people who believe in things they find stupid. i have to admit, i do this too, but i do my best to keep it at a minimum...so umm...yeah....

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 Post Number: 122
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 14 2001,03:00 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

quote:
Originally posted by PersonGuy:
So educate me. In your belief, what happens when people die? And is there a special case for the "baby". I'm truely interested.

Believe it or not, life after death isn't something that I've really thought about much; I'm really not afraid of dying, which means that the question doesn't have the same urgency or fear behind it for me that it does for some people.

I've always felt that humans have a "soul": something eternal, some part of us that isn't physical or constrained to the physical world, and that part of us will live on when we die. Thus, after death you will not necessarily have a body just like you did while you were alive, and since a person's soul is essentially the same throughout their life, there's no reason to assume that a baby would be any different from an adult.

Of course, this is just my view, and may not be identical to the views of Christians as a whole...

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 14 2001,04:43 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

quote:
Originally posted by Michael:
I've always felt that humans have a "soul": something eternal, some part of us that isn't physical or constrained to the physical world, and that part of us will live on when we die.

Well, strangely enough we agree on that... but I just don't buy into the "live on" part. The body is our window into the world, and once that's gone you just a non-thinking entity in a void. The same goes for animals and plants and micro-ogranizims and anything else that "lives". But to me, that's why it doesn't matter... when your dead you don't know.

But that's just the way I see it. And normally I WOULD assume that a Christian belives in life after death. If you don't, then my previous comments weren't directed at you.

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 Post Number: 124
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 14 2001,17:00 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

i guess this stuff is all a lot easier if you lack a belief in any kind of permanence, like a soul.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 17 2001,00:09 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I've mentioned it already but you all seemd to ignore it. But wouldnt adoption be the easiest solution everybody lives and it comes out with the least emotional consequences. notice i said the LEAST not that there wouldnt be any. its called cause and effect theres no way out of not having some kind of consequence
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 17 2001,04:32 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

no it's not the 'least consequences' option.

because for 9 months that woman still has to deal with whatever ramifications her boss and family will throw at her. if she's under 18, she may even get kicked out of school, out of her house, the list goes on.

then, she gives the kid away. but thanks to this being the 'feel good and find your roots' society that it is, she has to spend every day from that moment on wondering when that kid is going to come back and throw a massive wrench into the new life she's started.

say she's now married, 18 years later, and has a couple kids with her husband. do you think that it's some fairy tale where this doesn't affect her new family?

what if she's never told her husband because, hey, it was a mistake in her past she was tryin to move on from. how's he going to feel?

is he going to leave her?

what's the kid going to think when he/she sees the other kids? the ones she KEPT?
is it going to ruin that kid's life, seeing that while he/she wasn't wanted, other kids were?

oh, and as far as living in a world in where there really are no absolute "right" and absolute "wrong", and decisions get made on the 'least harm' principle.

and i rather like it that way.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 17 2001,04:38 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

why does it matter, this whole discussion is based upon what others believe people should do about abortion and when they dont want a baby. its not your place to tell them what to do and why do you care? let the person choose their own path and what they want to do.

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 Post Number: 128
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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 17 2001,07:02 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

I wholeheartedly appologize for the size of this post. This is not my work, but it is a very good writing on the positon:

This is Aaron from www.dotcult.com: Posted Jan 16, 2001:

As I've stated before, I never get involved in political issues. I have my own views on certain things, but I don't feel that I as a human being have the right to make another human being live their life a certain way. I can present logic and give suggestions, but creating policy for another person is something that I do not believe that I have the right to do.

However, in keeping in the spirit of proclaiming my opinions whenever possible, I will now voice my thoughts on the much debated topic of abortion.

I'm not pro-life, nor am I pro-choice. As I stated, I don't dictate policies for others. However, I would not kill a fetus that I helped to create, nor would I suggest for anyone else to do it.

While I do not get involved in politics, I do observe arguments from time to time. And I must say, the abortion issue has produced some of the stupidest arguments I have ever seen...on both sides of the issue. And now, I present a few of my personal favorites.

What if the woman is raped?

Oh yes, the infamous "create a victim to get an upper hand in the argument" tactic. This argumentative tactic is very similar to the common use of babies and children as sympathy crutches. And you know how I feel about the whole "What about the children?" thing.

Rape is a cruel crime to commit. I sympathize with any victims of rape, along with the physical and emotional damage that it causes. Sometimes, rapists impregnate the women that they victimize. Some pro-choice people often use this situation as a basis for their cause. They say "The woman didn't choose to make this child, why should she have to keep it?", or something to that effect. That type of statement may work on the more sympathetic individual, but for a logical person...it holds no water.

I seriously wonder how many of the people who use this argument have actually known a person that admitted to being a byproduct of rape. I would be willing to say that 99\% of them have not had a person who confided in them that they were a child of a rapist.

I personally know a couple of people that were brought here as a result of this crime. They're doing well in life, and find the very notion of their mother killing them because of something they had no control over preposterous. They are very thankful for the lives that they were blessed with, and happy that their mothers did not take "the easy way out." The same goes for the mothers; they love their children and abhor the thought of their lives being taken away because they weren't "planned."

There are two reasons for even using this as an argument. The first is that people who are skillful in argumentative speech know that "evil" words such as rape send out an immediate reaction to emotional people. Emotions block out logic, which makes the flaws in the argument harder to discern. It's simple word association play; rape = victim, victim = innocent, innocent = guilt free. I commend those who use this sneeaky tactic on their manipulation skills.

The second reason is that this gets rid of the whole "lack of responsibility" argument. Logic would dictate that punishing others for your mistakes makes no sense, so situations that absolve a person from responsibility are brought into play. However, this does not mask the fact that the vast majority of abortions are in fact cause by a blatant avoidance of responsibility. Trying to justify the legality of abortions as a whole by quoting something that is clearly a "special case" would be the same as legalizing murder as a whole because "sometimes it's done in self defense."

Justifying abortion based on something that is clearly a minute aspect of the issue (I wouldn't be surprised if the statistics put the rape factor at around 1\% or so) is ridiculous. It's almost as bad as the argument of:

What if the woman cannot take care of the child?

The problem with this argument is that no one can predict the future. Most people that use this argument portray the future child similarly to the children shown on television in those "save the children" ads. Right. More of that sentimental imagery crap. Sure, taking care of a child would be added responsibility and work, but there are very, very few cases in which it would be impossible for the mother to adequately provide for the child's well being with nothing more than a little added work and effort.

Similar to the whole rape issue, the percentage of those that legitimately would be forced to lead their future child into a tortured life of absolute poverty and destitution is very, very minute. This argument is most often used to mask the real argument in this case (most of the time), which could be summed up like this:

"What if a mother is too lazy and irresponsible to take care of the child and would sacrifice another's life just to make hers easier?"

What about birth defects, incurable diseases, etc.?

Ah, the ancient argument of "mercy killings." This is one of the better arguments, as logic is harder to put into play in this instance. It took me a little while to come up with a "witty retort" for this one, let me tell you! But finally, after much deliberation, I answered that statement with this:

If it is legal to "mercifully kill" a baby, why is it that I would be prosecuted for "mercifully killing" a deformed person or a retarded person? It's the same thing, after all - one person is making it their decision to end another's life. And comparing abortion to "pulling the plug" on a chronically ill person is like comparing apples and oranges. Extending a person's natural life is completely different to cutting one's natural life short.

Abortion should be illegal! It's morally wrong!

(This paragraph has been edited because it didn't sound the way I want it to. I admit my mistakes!)Most of the morals that we go by today are a result of religion; taking religion out of the equation means that your actions are based completely on the will of the majority. If you're not religious, then the things you view as "moral" are only aspects of the thinking of the majority that you have percieved from a young age. "Human laws" are often changed, as was evidenced by the fact that things that are viewed as "morally wrong" now were accepted before, and vice versa. Non-religious "morals" change with the wind.

If people try to use the Bible as a basis for outlawing abortion, they're still in error. While the Bible states that murder is wrong and states that a fetus' life is worth just as much as a grown person's, it also states that Christians are not to be involved in politics. That's right; by picketing, protesting, and rallying "the cause", you're voiding out your allegiance to the Bible and cannot use it as a basis. Sorry.

The problem with any pro-abortion argument is that you're justifying the taking away of human life. The problem with anti-abortion arguments is that it is hard to come up with a common basis as to why it is wrong to take away a human life in the first place.

I personally think that people should stop coming up with stupid excuses for their reasoning and say what they really feel. Could you imagine the rallies if people stated what was really on their mind? I could see the signs now:

"I don't like abortion so you should change the law to fit my feelings!"

"I like abortion so you should change the law to fit my feelings!"

It all basically comes down to making your own personal choices and dealing with the consequences of that choice. I'm against the abortion of any future child of mine and I don't like seeing that the practice is regularly performed, but I'm not going to try to govern your lives because of my decision.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 17 2001,07:10 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

it is about personal choice.

a choice that resides squarely as the private medical decisions between a woman and her doctor.

it's not a legal issue. it's not a religious issue. it's definitely not for someone else to decide.

and as far as 'what if' this and 'what if that' the only 'what if' that should matter at all is 'what if this woman does not want to have a kid?'

the answer is between her and her doctor. the decision is entirely up to her.

it's not 'the easy way out' that it's professed to be, either. in reality, nobody knows until they have been there just how 'not easy' it is.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jan. 17 2001,10:37 Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

oh fuck it get a shotgun and kill both the mum and the baby i dont give a fuck no more!!!! least that'll stop her feckin moaning about oh what am i to do???

no need for her to worry bout no feckin morals noW!!!!

sorry just pissed off at everyones opinions.
I just like to be right thats all

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