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| Post Number: 31
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kuru 
Detonate.net's 9mm wielding geek-hit-Goddess
Group: Members
Posts: 2566
Joined: Aug. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 28 2002,23:10 |
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The pledge was created and modified by Act of Congress, that means that it has the weight of law.
Furthermore, it does indeed establish theism as 'official' in this country, because for the GOVERNMENT to say that 'nothing can be above god'..... read this really slowly CK.....
it must acknowledge or proclaim the existence of such a god.
This government shouldn't be claiming that a 'god' higher than man exists because that's an establisment of theism, and it's Constitutionally prohibited.
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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost
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| Post Number: 32
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CatKnight
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 28 2002,23:24 |
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| Quote | | Since Congress passed this LAW [b]requiring[b] the "under God" part added to the pledge, is does indeed violate the first part, and therefore my arguement is completely sound. That's the part you are missing CK. Congress did pass this as a LAW. Get your facts straight first. I suggest doing a net search on the histroy of the Pledge and look at more than just Rush Limba's website for news about what is happening now. |
you won't go to jail if you fail to recite the pledge. the adding of the under god part was an act of congress, but not a law. if it was a law, the senate and the president would have to approve it.
read this really slowly Kuru...
NOBODY CARES. it is not unconstitutional. have you looked at the papers/polls/opinions lately? have you talked to anyone in real life lately? just about everyone is upset with this court and this guy for making such a rediculous argument. it is not the job of the courts to make sure every individual is coddled and that no one has to live with being upset by the beliefs of the majority of the country. you couldn't possibly go through public school expecting never to encounter differing opinions, even ones set forth by the government. and if you did, you wouldn't be getting an education!
it seems we live in a rule-of-the-most-offended society here. to this I have to say, STFU.
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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| Post Number: 33
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Bozeman
Guardian
Group: Members
Posts: 762
Joined: Jun. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 28 2002,23:29 |
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You may not go to jail, but you can serve detention for not saying it, at least in some schools.
And as to the NOBODY CARES part, how many people would have to care BEFORE it becomes wrong? A hundred? A thousand? A million? HOW MANY, CK?
/Jean Luc Picard
This isn't about coddling. The pledge is acknowleging a God in a government-run place. I don't care how many people care, or don't care. That is still against separation of church and state.
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It's the pop-o-matic bubble, motherfucker!
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| Post Number: 34
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Pravus Angelus
Codito Ergo Sum
Group: Members
Posts: 81
Joined: May 2002
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Posted on: Jun. 29 2002,00:05 |
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You know...I'd say something here, but demonk, kuru and bozemen pretty much have it all covered and quite correctly...
Side note: many people have observed that we might need to alter currency because it says "in god we trust". There's a difference though, since you never pledge yourself to these words, nor do you even acknowledge their accuracy or validity. Pledging allegience to a nation "under god" quite definately forces you to acknowledge god's existence.
CK, the constitution doesn't read that congress shall never share power with a religion, nor does it say that congress shall delegate no power to religion, it says congress shall never respect an establishment of religion by law... that's pretty damn narrow, and I think if the founders' intent was simply to never grant religion direct legal powers, they could have and would have been far more clear on it.
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"Lately, the only thing keeping me from being a serial killer is my distaste for manual labor"
--Dilbert
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| Post Number: 35
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demonk
The other white meat
Group: Members
Posts: 800
Joined: Aug. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 29 2002,00:35 |
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| Quote (CatKnight @ 28 June 2002,15:24) | | the adding of the under god part was an act of congress, but not a law. if it was a law, the senate and the president would have to approve it. |
Wow CK, this is the first time I've caught you proving to everyone that you don't know what your talking about.
THEY DID APPROVE IT!!!! EISENTHOWER HIMSELF SIGNED THE BILL THAT WAS PASSED BY CONGRESS INTO LAW IN 1954 ON JUNE 14!!!
This has the full backing of the 1954 Congress and Presidential administration. It was signed into LAW by the 1954 Congress and Presidential administration. Therefore it is the law of the United States of American Federal government that the OFFICIAL pledge of allegiance has the term "under God" in it. No, you will never goto jail for not saying the "under God" part (yet). But they have still overstepped their bounds of power and violated the First Amendment. That is what the court has ruled.
And the court is not required to answer to the majority. They are there to interpret the Constitution and new LAWS passed by Congress. Congress and the President are the only ones who has to answer directory to the majority (because of elections). So the courts have the ability to not get into a popularity/power struggle and they can address the laws as objectivly as possible (true objectivity is impossible because they are still human). So, in answer to who cares:
I DO
And that is enough to ask for a redress of grievences by my government. Face it CK, you are the side of this arguement that doesn't have a legal leg to stand on.
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I'm just two people short of a threesome!
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| Post Number: 36
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Darth Liberus
Emperor of Detnet
Group: Members
Posts: 2246
Joined: Jan. 1970
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Posted on: Jun. 29 2002,00:51 |
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I know plenty of Christians who believe firmly in the separation of Church and State, and they've got a very interesting take on the issue.
First is that you can't legislate faith. That just creates a bunch of false followers and disgraces the big guy.
Second is that God gives NO human being more of a mandate to rule than anyone else. The only person fit to rule in God's name is Jesus Christ. When He is ready to rule us He will come back and do it himself.
It's fun to sit down with a preacher who knows I'm a diehard agnostic, and have him explain that when Judgement Day comes I'm going to be part of the New Earth along with most of the other people the Holy Rollers condemn... and most of the Holy Rollers will be going to a much darker place 
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"let's travel around with our laptops, plug in, and destroy the very fabric of modern reality." -a2n3d7y
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| Post Number: 37
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Darth Liberus
Emperor of Detnet
Group: Members
Posts: 2246
Joined: Jan. 1970
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Posted on: Jun. 29 2002,00:55 |
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heh, CK also overlooked one other important fact...
Congress = the House and the Senate.
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"let's travel around with our laptops, plug in, and destroy the very fabric of modern reality." -a2n3d7y
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| Post Number: 38
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TheTaxMan
Controversial Thug
Group: Members
Posts: 874
Joined: Apr. 2001
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Posted on: Jun. 29 2002,04:16 |
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| Quote (CatKnight @ 28 June 2002,15:24) | | NOBODY CARES. |
You arrogant fuck wit.
You can't force your theism on me, or anyone's kid if they're in public school. If you must have your precious 'nation: under God' then keep it out of public facilities.
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Four billion years of evolution and this is all we have to show for it?
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| Post Number: 39
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ic0n0
I have become Death, Destroyer of Worlds
Group: Members
Posts: 1352
Joined: Sep. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 29 2002,04:59 |
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| Quote | "From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and every rural school house, the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty,"
President Eisenhower in 1954 after signing into law the legislation |
Your telling me that isn't Supposed to promote religion, the fucking intent is to promote the worship of god, which the state CANNOT acknowledge exists without breaking the establishment clause in the 1st amendment that the Supreme Court has ruled exists many times.
Edited by ic0n0 on Jan. 01 1970,01:00
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"I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time." (Isaac Asimov)
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| Post Number: 40
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CatKnight
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jun. 29 2002,06:07 |
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| Quote | | You can't force your theism on me, or anyone's kid if they're in public school. If you must have your precious 'nation: under God' then keep it out of public facilities. |
Including: all spectator sports, all civil courts, all currency, the national anthem, PBS, The House of Representitives, even the President's Oath. There are many many more. You may say "well screw it, just get rid of them all!" but I don't think the vast vast majority of the population would agree with you.
Saying "in god we trust" or "one nation under god" does NOT establish a state religion. All it does is establish that many people practice religion. You guys seem to all be confused by this. The Taliban is a state religion. The Vatican is a state religion. The United States is not.
As for the 1954 law thing, I have found many mentions of it but I can't find any specific detials about the so-called law itself, so I'm not going to say anything else about it.
As for DSL, I did not confuse the house with congress, I was looking for any mention of the senate endorsing the law but I could find none.
For Taxman, even CNN is reporting that people don't care. Even the most liberal democrats in congress are standing up and shouting that this was a bad move. Why? Because EVERYONE except for that guy in california, and you guys, thinks this was a very stupid court decision.
I bet anyone here $5 that this gets overturned in the supreme court. 2 to 1 odds. All bets have to be approved by me and must have a written or verbal agreement.
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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