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 Post Number: 131
Chrissy Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 23 2000,00:21  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Actually it was extremely sexist but I wont rant about that because I dont really feel like it.

However society is dominated by white hetrosexual men and this is why they "contribute" to society more-- not because women are less intelligent but because women on the whole are taken less serious by your "world"- so just because you have "scientfic proof" doesnt mean shit to me.

Sorry

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"The causes we know everything about depend on the causes we know nothing about, which depend on the causes we know absolutely nothing about."- Tom Stoppard

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 Post Number: 132
j0eSmith Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 23 2000,02:19 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Chrissy

I really feel I should point out that at least Dustman can backup his arguement with something. Your whole arguement is that "society has made it this way" its "societies" fault that there ARE more male geniuses. Can you offer any other proof than "society is evil"?

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 Post Number: 133
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 23 2000,02:21 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Chrissy

I really feel I should point out that at least Dustman can backup his arguement with something. Your whole arguement is that "society has made it this way" its "societies" fault that there ARE more male geniuses. Can you offer any other proof than "society is evil"?

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 Post Number: 134
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 23 2000,03:15 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

DustMan: While I seldom agree with Chrissy's 'nurture' stance, I think she's got her heart in the right place and she does raise a lot of good points. I am more of a 'nature' type guy myself, but I try to maintain skepticism about scientific findings. I think that there's good reason to. Ever heard of phrenology?

As well, I don't know where you came up with the argument that the male brain is more 'efficient' then the female brain. Just because you've thrown some numbers around doesn't prove jack shit. All you've created is a false sense of precision - a dumb fallacy that every student of science should know to avoid.

It's not clear to me whether you're genuinely sexist and are intentionally using 'scientific' findings to mislead, or if you truly believe the malarky that you're expounding. Regardless, I think that you need to read up on philosophy of science before you start throwing scientific arguments around. You're giving science a bad name (and I hate that). I suggest you start with Thomas Kuhn's "Structure of Scientific Revolutions". Read that book and you'll realize that there are limitations to science. Follow that one up with a book by Trevor Pinch, "The Golem: What You Should Know About Science".

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 Post Number: 135
Chrissy Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 23 2000,03:22 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Proof?
Why does everything need to be backed up with proof?
Not that I can't do it.
But first before we start this little rant about nature vs nurture again my suggestion would be for you to read up on M. Foucault. He's a little hard to understand but once you get the gist of him you'll see where my argument comes from.

Until that point there isn't real much I can do to "disprove" your "nature" findings. My feeling is this. Science is great for explaining many things about our physical world. Once you get past the physical boundries you verge into the study of people (AKA Sociology)- people tend to want to explain people in the same way the explain the physical world but this cannot be done.

Again if anyone is interested on where I get these ideas they are all in Foucault's "Two Lectures" and many of his other writings. It may serve you well to expand how you think about the world. After all Im not the only one who believes that science doesnt "prove" everything.

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"The causes we know everything about depend on the causes we know nothing about, which depend on the causes we know absolutely nothing about."- Tom Stoppard

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 Post Number: 136
Sithiee Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 23 2000,10:26 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

wait wait wait, your going to law school, and you ask why things need to be backed up by proof??? oh my, you really ought to think twice about this profession.
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 Post Number: 137
DuSTman Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 23 2000,11:45 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Oh christ.

There are differences between the male and female brain structure. I am not saying women are less intelligent than men (on average.) The mean is the same. The standard deviation for men is higher due to the fact that male brain tissue is made up of a higher percentage of communicative tissue.

Yes. Most idiots are men. Most genius are men also. I am also not saying that there will be no females making significant advancements in science. However, it will probably be the people classed as genius that make this sort of discovery.. Most of these are men. I do not know the root of this difference in brain tissue makeup, but it is there.

I was responding to *YOUR* sexist comments about males being unable to think in the first place, so don't go telling me off for sexism.

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 Post Number: 138
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 23 2000,12:29 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

quote:
Originally posted by The_Hiro:
DustMan: While I seldom agree with Chrissy's 'nurture' stance, I think she's got her heart in the right place and she does raise a lot of good points. I am more of a 'nature' type guy myself, but I try to maintain skepticism about scientific findings. I think that there's good reason to. Ever heard of phrenology?

As well, I don't know where you came up with the argument that the male brain is more 'efficient' then the female brain. Just because you've thrown some numbers around doesn't prove jack shit. All you've created is a false sense of precision - a dumb fallacy that every student of science should know to avoid.

It's not clear to me whether you're genuinely sexist and are intentionally using 'scientific' findings to mislead, or if you truly believe the malarky that you're expounding. Regardless, I think that you need to read up on philosophy of science before you start throwing scientific arguments around. You're giving science a bad name (and I hate that). I suggest you start with Thomas Kuhn's "Structure of Scientific Revolutions". Read that book and you'll realize that there are limitations to science. Follow that one up with a book by Trevor Pinch, "The Golem: What You Should Know About Science".


I did not argue that as a whole the average male brain is more efficient than the average female brain. There are differences in structure, but AFAIK the average intelligence for both is 100. This is how efficiency in the context you're talking about should be measured.

Nurture may do a fair amount to the formation of a brain, but these generally "go along" to some extent with genetic differences. There are differences in structure between male and female brains. It is inevitible that there will therefore be some advantages of one "design" over the other and vice versa.

There was an argument that there have been less famous female scientists than male due to the sexism in the scientific fraternity. I cannot deny this has happened, but the fact that male brain tissue is more made up by volume of grey matter, each new bit of brain communicates with the other bits of brain better and therefore any thought process taking place in that part of brain is better linked to the other parts of the brain, and therefore adds more per cubic centimeter.

It is more efficient volumetrically but not on average real-world situations. The people that develop world changing scientific theories arn't average people, however. Male brains have a higher standard deviation of intelligence, so more males will be found in this area naturally (although not quite so polarised as the past due to decreasing sexism in the scientific fraternity).

I read most of my information about brain structures from a scientific magazine, "Focus", article on the make-up of brain. Most of this logic is not my own.

I just plain don't like the suggestion that somehow my way of thinking gives science a bad name.

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 Post Number: 139
Chrissy Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 23 2000,12:32 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Hey Sithiee...kiss my arse
You guys want HARD SCIENTIFIC PROOF of what Im saying. First of all read a few sociological journals and then read some philosophical texts (like the ones Ive mentioned time after time after time) See the thing is no one actually wants to take the time to do any of these things and Im guessing there are several reasons for this.
1. Time
2. Laziness
3. You might actually have to think
4. Your precious opinion MIGHT be changed
I refuse to allow myself to be badgered on these posts because you guys don't want to take the time to even LOOK into my point of view. I have read a lot on the differences between "men" and "women" (after all I am a soc major part of the course is to deal with gender "differences") You think I pull all these thoughts where? OUT OF MY FUCKING ARSE? I don't-they come from readings of done, papers that have been writen (both by me and others) and from discussion and PLAIN OLD OBSERVATION.

I refuse to post until somone besides me reads a little bit more on what Im saying.

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"The causes we know everything about depend on the causes we know nothing about, which depend on the causes we know absolutely nothing about."- Tom Stoppard

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 Post Number: 140
Sithiee Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jun. 23 2000,13:37 Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

im not even bothering to read this discussion anymore, i just peruse it a bit, and i saw what you wrote about proof, and i felt the need to respond.
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