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Topic: it's the bash CK thread!, no flames< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
 Post Number: 31
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 23 2002,14:52  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

thats totally false DSL. the nazi's WERE socialists first of all.

Quote (Washington Times @ 6/95)
During the past several months in the American press, the Democrats have frequently denounced the Republicans as Nazis due to their attempts to control runaway federal spending. How very ironic. I remember the Nazis. Let me share a little about them and recall some of their exploits.

First of all, "Nazi" was gutter slang for the verb "to nationalize". The Bider-Mienhoff gang gave themselves this moniker during their early struggles. The official title of the Nazi Party was "The National Socialist Workers Party of Germany". Hitler and the Brownshirts advocated the nationalization of education, health care, transportation, national resources, manufacturing, distribution and law enforcement.

Hitler came to power by turning the working class, unemployed, and academic elite against the conservative republic. After der fuhrer's election ceased being a political conspiracy and was transformed into a fashionable social phenomenon, pary membership was especially popular with educators, bureaucrats, and the press. Being a Nazi was politically correct. They called themselves "The Children of the New Age of World Order" and looked down their noses at everyone else. As Hitler accrued more power, he referred to his critics as "The Dark Forces of Anarchy and Hatred". Anyone who questioned Nazi high-handedness in the German press was branded a "Conservative Reactionary". Joseph Goebbels, minister of communications, proclaimed a "New World Order".

The Nazi reign of terror began with false news reports on the Jews, Bohemians and Gypses who were said to be arming themselves to overthrow the "New World Order" and Hitler demanded that all good people register their guns so that they wouldn't fall into the hands of "terrorists and madmen". Right wing fanatics of the "Old Order" who protested firearms registration were arrested by the S.S. and put in jail for "fomenting hatred against the Government of the German people".

Then the Reichstag (government building) was blown up and Hitler ram-rodded an "Emergency Anti-Terrorist Act" through Parliament that gave the Gestapo extraordinary powers. The leader then declared that for the well-being of the German people, all private firearms were to be confiscated by the Gestapo and the Wermotten (federal law enforcement and military). German citizens who refused to surrender their guns when the "jack-boots" (Gestapo) came calling, were murdered in their homes. By the way, the Gestapo were the federal marshals' service of the Third Reich. The S.W.A.T. team was invented and perfected by the Gestapo to break into the homes of the enemies of the German people.

When the Policia Bewakken, or local police, refused to take away guns from townsfolk, they themselves were disarmed and dragged out into the street and shot to death by the S.A. and the S.S. Those were Nazi versions of the B.A.T.F. and the F.B.I. When several local ministers spoke out against these atrocities, they were imprisoned and never seen again.

The Gestapo began to confiscate and seize the homes, businesses, bank accounts, and personal belongings of wealthy conservative citizes who had prospered in the old Republic. Pamphleteers who urged revolt against the Nazis were shot on site by national law enforcement and the military. Gypsies and Jews were detained and sent to labor camps. Mountain roads throughout central Europe were closed to prevent the escape of fugitives into the wilderness, and to prevent the movement and concealment of partisan resistance fighters.

Public schools rewrote history and Hitler youth groups taught the children to report their parents to their teachers for anti-Nazi remarks. Such parents disappeared. Pagan animism became the state religion of the Third Reich and Christians were widely condemned as "right wing fanatics".

Millions of books were burned first and then people. Millions of them burned in huge ovens after they were first gassed to death. Unmarried women were paid large sums of money to have babies out of wedlock and then given medals for it. Evil was declared as being good, and good was condemned as being evil. World Order was coming and the German people were going to be the "peacekeepers".

Yes, indeed(Hillary), I remember the Nazis and they weren't Republicans, or "right wing", or "patriots" or "militias". They were Socialist monsters.

Thomas Colton Ruthford


furthermore, the german people knew full well what hitler and his SS gang were doing. They even PARTICIPATED in the atrocities. Hitler couldn't have rounded up/slaughtered the jews unless a majority of the people thought it was a GOOD IDEA.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 23 2002,16:49 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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Hitler couldn't have rounded up/slaughtered the jews unless a majority of the people thought it was a GOOD IDEA.


more like the people did not care or were to afrade to do anything about it.

basicly, it was a good idea right up till paragraph 4.  it goes down hill rapidly from there.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 23 2002,17:41 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Historians all agree that if Hitler had been killed in the early 1930's, he would have been remembered as one of the world's greatest leaders.  He was able to take a country that was finacially bankrupt and decending into widespread poverty and anarchy, and turn it into one of the best producting, stable countries at the time.  Of course, we all know what his TRUE goals where, they just didn't come out until a few years later.

Reading that quote I couldn't help be see some similarities between what happened in Germany and what is happening now.  Especially the Anti-Terrorist bill that gave the military and other government enforcment agencies lots of power and little to answer for.  Remind you of a recent bill that past (think PATRIOT act)?  Of course, thank to the media in this country (ha!  they are good for something CK!;), if people started getting shot in the street for not registering their guns, you know that it would be over every newspaper, TV set, radio, and Internet news site on the planet.  It wouldn't be tollerated by the people, and it would be stoped, very quickly.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 23 2002,18:11 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Quote (CatKnight @ 23 July 2002,14:52)
[quote=Washington Times,6/95]First of all, "Nazi" was gutter slang for the verb "to nationalize".


bollocks: 'Nazi' - 1930, from Ger. Nazi, from Ger. pronunciation of Nationalsozialist, from Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei "National Socialist German Workers' Party," led by Hitler from 1920. Before 1930, party members had been called in Eng. National Socialists, which dates from 1923.

Quote
Hitler and the Brownshirts advocated the nationalization of education, health care, transportation, national resources, manufacturing, distribution and law enforcement.


yeeeess. but only in order to get them out of the hands of 'The Dark Forces of Anarchy and Hatred' (who were anyone hitler and goebbels decided i.e. trade unions, jews, foreigners) and under his control. which is helpful when you're planning a military push for 'lebenraum'

Quote
The Nazi reign of terror began with false news reports on the Jews, Bohemians and Gypses who were said to be arming themselves to overthrow the "New World Order" and Hitler demanded that all good people register their guns so that they wouldn't fall into the hands of "terrorists and madmen". Right wing fanatics of the "Old Order" who protested firearms registration were arrested by the S.S. and put in jail for "fomenting hatred against the Government of the German people".


yeah right. the gun lobby is all that stands between america and national socialism. Hitler needed to control guns as the extreme of political debate at the time was the Putzch (the method by which hitler began his rise to power). this involves a large quantity of armed men turning up at your seat of power and saying resign or we kill you. this was not so unlikely at the start of hitler's reign. you cannot use the army to massacre lots of disgruntled citizens as they march on the Reichstag. that's called civil war. so you take their guns. yes? you see now?

Quote
Yes, indeed(Hillary), I remember the Nazis and they weren't Republicans, or "right wing", or "patriots" or "militias". They were Socialist monsters.


except of course when they sent ppl to forced labour camps for being err...socialist.

you cannot quote a piece of journalism and claim it as fact. just cos you happen to agree with the views expressed doesn't make them accurate. this guy is trying to shoehorn an argument about republicans doing what they always do, which is to try and keep as much money for themselves as possible into some very dodgy and irrelevant history. hitler has nothing to do with federal spending budgets. it's just a good way of accusing democrats of being the /real/ nazis. which is just more mud-slinging.

anyway aside from all that - yes CK, all republicans are right all the time.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 23 2002,18:26 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

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KitKat, that is the absolute best response to CK!  My respect for you just shot through the roof!


:D:D:D

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Will my question be answered...? Ooohoo... Let's see, let's see... Can't wait...

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 23 2002,19:00 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Section F - Is "anarcho"-capitalism a type of anarchism?
Anyone who has followed political discussion on the net has probably come across people calling themselves libertarians but arguing from a right-wing, pro-capitalist perspective. For most Europeans this is weird, as in Europe the term "libertarian" is almost always used in conjunction with "socialist" or "communist." In the US, though, the Right has partially succeeded in appropriating this term for itself. Even stranger, however, is that a few of these right-wingers have started calling themselves "anarchists" in what must be one of the finest examples of an oxymoron in the English language: 'Anarcho-capitalist'!!

Arguing with fools is seldom rewarded, but to allow their foolishness to go unchallenged risks allowing them to deceive those who are new to anarchism. That's what this section of the anarchist FAQ is for, to show why the claims of these "anarchist" capitalists are false. Anarchism has always been anti-capitalist and any "anarchism" that claims otherwise cannot be part of the anarchist tradition. So this section of the FAQ does not reflect some kind of debate within anarchism, as many of these types like to pretend, but a debate between anarchism and its old enemy, capitalism. In many ways this debate mirrors the one between Peter Kropotkin and Herbert Spencer, an English pro-capitalist, minimal statist, at the turn the 19th century and, as such, it is hardly new.

The "anarcho"-capitalist argument hinges on using the dictionary definition of "anarchism" and/or "anarchy" - they try to define anarchism as being "opposition to government," and nothing else. However, dictionaries are hardly politically sophisticated and their definitions rarely reflect the wide range of ideas associated with political theories and their history. Thus the dictionary "definition" is anarchism will tend to ignore its consistent views on property, exploitation, property and capitalism (ideas easily discovered if actual anarchist texts are read). And, of course, many dictionaries "define" anarchy as "chaos" or "disorder" but we never see "anarcho"-capitalists use that particular definition!

And for this strategy to work, a lot of "inconvenient" history and ideas from all branches of anarchism must be ignored. From individualists like Spooner and Tucker to communists like Kropotkin and Malatesta, anarchists have always been anti-capitalist (see section G for more on the anti-capitalist nature of individualist anarchism). Therefore "anarcho"-capitalists are not anarchists in the same sense that rain is not dry.

Of course, we cannot stop the "anarcho"-capitalists using the words "anarcho", "anarchism" and "anarchy" to describe their ideas. The democracies of the west could not stop the Chinese Stalinist state calling itself the People's Republic of China.. Nor could the social democrats stop the fascists in Germany calling themselves "National Socialists". Nor could the Italian anarcho-syndicalists stop the fascists using the expression "National Syndicalism". This does not mean that any of these movements actual name reflected their content -- China is a dictatorship, not a democracy, the Nazi's were not socialists (capitalists made fortunes in Nazi Germany because it crushed the labour movement), and the Italian fascist state had nothing in common with anarcho-syndicalists ideas of decentralised, "from the bottom up" unions and the abolition of the state and capitalism.

Therefore, just because someone uses a label it does not mean that they support the ideas associated with that label. And this is the case with "anarcho"-capitalism -- its ideas are at odds with the key ideas associated with all forms of traditional anarchism (even individualist anarchism which is often claimed as being a forefather of the ideology).

All we can do is indicate why "anarcho"-capitalism is not part of the anarchist tradition and so has falsely appropriated the name. This section of the FAQ aims to do just that -- present the case why "anarcho"-capitalists are not anarchists. We do this, in part, by indicating where they differ from genuine anarchists (on such essential issues as private property, equality, exploitation and opposition to hierarchy) In addition, we take the opportunity to present a general critique of right-libertarian claims from an anarchist perspective. In this way we show up why anarchists reject that theory as being opposed to liberty and anarchist ideals.

We are covering this topic in an anarchist FAQ for only one reason -- the high number of "libertarian" and "anarcho"-capitalists on the net (likely a class-based phenomenon, based on ownership of computers!;) As we have extensively documented in earlier sections, anarchist theory has always been anti-capitalist. There is no relationship between anarchism and capitalism, in any form. Therefore, there is a need for this section in order to indicate exactly why "anarcho"-capitalism is not anarchist. We have, in earlier sections (see section B in particular), indicated why the idea of a "libertarian" capitalism is itself nonsense and will not repeat ourselves here.

So this section of the FAQ does not, as we noted above, represent some kind of "debate" within anarchism. It reflects the attempt by anarchists to reclaim the history and meaning of anarchism from those who are attempting to steal its name (just as right-wingers in America have attempted to appropriate the name "libertarian" for their pro-capitalist views, and by so doing ignore over 100 years of anti-capitalist usage). However, this section also serves two other purposes. Firstly, critiquing right-libertarian and "anarcho"-capitalist theories allows us to explain anarchist ones at the same time and indicate why they are better. Secondly, and more importantly, the "ideas" and "ideals" that underlie "anarcho"-capitalism are usually identical (or, at the very least, similar) to those of neo-liberalism (as Bob Black points outs, a "wing of the Reaganist Right has obviously appropriated, with suspect selectivity, such libertarian themes as deregulation and voluntarism. Ideologues indignant that Reagan has travestied their principles. Tough shit! I notice that it's their principles, not mine, that he found suitable to travesty" [The Libertarian As Conservative]). And as neo-liberalism is being used as the ideological basis of the current attack on the working class, critiquing "anarcho" capitalism and right-libertarianism also allows use to build theoretical weapons to use to resist this attack and aid the class struggle.

A few more points before beginning. When debating with "libertarian" or "anarchist" capitalists it's necessary to remember that while they claim "real capitalism" does not exist (because all existing forms of capitalism are statist), they will claim that all the good things we have -- advanced medical technology, consumer choice of products, etc. -- are nevertheless due to "capitalism." Yet if you point out any problems in modern life, these will be blamed on "statism." Since there has never been and never will be a capitalist system without some sort of state, it's hard to argue against this "logic." Many actually use the example of the Internet as proof of the power of "capitalism," ignoring the fact that the state paid for its development before turning it over to companies to make a profit from it. Similar points can be made about numerous other products of "capitalism" and the world we live in. To artificially separate one aspect of a complex evolution fails to understand the nature and history of the capitalist system.

In addition to this ability to be selective about the history and results of capitalism, their theory has a great "escape clause." If wealthy employers abuse their power or the rights of the working class (as they have always done), then they have (according to "libertarian" ideology) ceased to be capitalists! This is based upon the misperception that an economic system that relies on force cannot be capitalistic. This is very handy as it can absolve the ideology from blame for any (excessive) oppression which results from its practice. Thus individuals are always to blame, not the system that generated the opportunities for abuse they freely used.

Anarchism has always been aware of the existence of "free market" capitalism, particularly its extreme (minimal statist) wing, and has always rejected it. For example, Proudhon noted that "the disciples of Malthus and of Say, who oppose with all their might any intervention of the State in matters commercial or industrial, do not fail to avail themselves of this seemingly liberal attitude, and to show themselves more revolutionary than the Revolution. More than one honest searcher has been deceived thereby." However, this apparent "libertarian" attitude of supporters of capitalism is false as pure free market capitalism cannot solve the social question, which arises because of capitalism itself. Thus "this inaction of Power in economic matters [celebrated by the "free market" right] was the foundation of government. What need should we have of a political organisation, if Power once permitted us to enjoy economic order?" [The General Idea of the Revolution, p. 226] Instead of capitalism, Proudhon advocated the "constitution of Value," the "organisation of credit," the elimination of interest, the "establishment of workingmen's associations" and "the use of a just price." [Ibid., p. 233]

Thus anarchists have evaluated "free market" capitalism and rejected it as non-anarchist over 150 years ago. Attempts by "anarcho"-capitalism to say that their system is "anarchist" flies in the face of this long history of anarchist analysis.

More generally, we must stress that most (if not all) anarchists do not want to live in a society just like this one but without state coercion and (the initiation of) force. Anarchists do not confuse "freedom" with the "right" to govern and exploit others nor with being able to change masters. It is not enough to say we can start our own (co-operative) business in such a society. We want the abolition of the capitalist system of authoritarian relationships, not just a change of bosses or the possibility of little islands of liberty within a sea of capitalism (islands which are always in danger of being flooded and our activity destroyed). Thus, in this section of the FAQ, we analysis many "anarcho"-capitalist claims on their own terms (for example, the importance of equality in the market or why capitalism cannot be reformed away by exchanges on the capitalist market) but that does not mean we desire a society nearly identical to the current one. Far from it, we want to transform this society into one more suited for developing and enriching individuality and freedom. But before we can achieve that we must critically evaluate the current society and point out its basic limitations.

Finally, we dedicate this section of the FAQ to those who have seen the real face of "free market" capitalism at work: the working men and women (anarchist or not) murdered in the jails and concentration camps or on the streets by the hired assassins of capitalism

Edited by ic0n0 on Jan. 01 1970,01:00

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 24 2002,05:39 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

fascism is a form of socialism, except instead of getting the people to rally behind you against the rich, you get the people and the rich to rally behind you for your country. corporations were still controlled by their owners but most other things were socialized. the rest is just semantics.

Quote
Historians all agree that if Hitler had been killed in the early 1930's, he would have been remembered as one of the world's greatest leaders.  He was able to take a country that was finacially bankrupt and decending into widespread poverty and anarchy, and turn it into one of the best producting, stable countries at the time.  Of course, we all know what his TRUE goals where, they just didn't come out until a few years later.


hitler's socialism isn't want brought germany out of the depression, and neither was FDR's socialism. the most important contribution to economic recovery in that era was rearmament.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 24 2002,06:00 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation: 'fa-"shi-z&m also 'fa-"si-
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
Date: 1921
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality -- J. W. Aldridge>

Main Entry: so·cial·ism
Pronunciation: 'sO-sh&-"li-z&m
Function: noun
Date: 1837
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
Main Entry: Sta·lin·ism
Pronunciation: 'stä-l&-"ni-z&m, 'sta-
Function: noun
Date: 1927
: the political, economic, and social principles and policies

FASCISM


Fascism was an authoritarian political movement that developed in Italy and other European countries after 1919 as a reaction against the political and social changes brought about by World War I and the spread of socialism and communism. Its name was derived from the fasces, an ancient Roman symbol of authority consisting of a bundle of rods and an ax.


Italian fascism was founded in Milan on Mar. 23, 1919, by Benito MUSSOLINI, a former revolutionary socialist leader. His followers, mostly war veterans, were organized along paramilitary lines and wore black shirts as uniforms. The early Fascist program was a mixture of left-and right-wing ideas that emphasized intense NATIONALISM, productivism, antisocialism, elitism, and the need for a strong leader. Mussolini's oratorical skills, the postwar economic crisis, a widespread lack of confidence in the traditional political system, and a growing fear of socialism, all helped the Fascist party to grow to 300,000 registered members by 1921. In that year it elected 35 members to parliament. Mussolini became prime minister in October 1922 following the "march on Rome" and 3 years of bloody violence. In 1926 he seized total power as dictator and ruled Italy until July 1943, when he was deposed. A puppet Fascist regime with Mussolini at its head nominally controlled northern Italy under the Germans until Mussolini's execution by partisans in 1945 (see ITALY, HISTORY OF). A neo-Fascist party, the Italian Social Movement, was founded after World War II, but its influence was small.


The Philosophy of Fascism


Fascist ideology, largely the work of the neoidealist philosopher Giovanni GENTILE, emphasized the subordination of the individual to a "totalitarian" state that was to control all aspects of national life. Violence as a creative force was an important aspect of the Fascist philosophy. A special feature of Italian fascism was the attempt to eliminate the class struggle from history through nationalism and the corporate state. Mussolini organized the economy and all "producers"--from peasants and factory workers to intellectuals and industrialists--into 22 corporations as a means of improving productivity and avoiding industrial disputes. Contrary to the regime's propaganda claims, the totalitarian state functioned poorly. Mussolini had to compromise with big business, the monarchy, and the Roman Catholic church. The Italian economy experienced no appreciable growth. The corporate state was never fully implemented, and the expansionist, militaristic nature of fascism contributed to imperialist adventures in Ethiopia and the Balkans and ultimately to World War II.

Closely related to Italian fascism was German National Socialism, or NAZISM, under Adolf HITLER. It won wide support among the unemployed, the impoverished middle class, and industrialists who feared socialism and communism. In Spain the Falange Espanola (Spanish Phalanx), inspired by Mussolini's doctrines, was founded in 1933 by Jose Antonio Primo de Rivera (1903-36). During the SPANISH CIVIL WAR, the Falange was reorganized as the Falange Espanola Tradicionalista by Gen. Francisco FRANCO, who made it the official party of his regime. Of less importance were the Fascist movements in France and the British Union of Fascists under Sir Oswald MOSLEY. Fascist movements sprang up in many other European countries during the 1930s, including Romania (see IRON GUARD), Belgium, Austria, and the Netherlands. Fascist groups rose to power in many of the countries under German occupation during World War II. In France the VICHY GOVERNMENT of Marshal Philippe Petain was strongly influenced by the ACTION FRANCAISE, a movement that shared many ideas with fascism. The collaborationist Quisling government in occupied Norway also espoused a fascistlike ideology. The defeat of Italy and Germany in the war, however, spelled the end of fascism as an effective, internationally appealing mass movement.

"Fascism, which was not afraid to call itself reactionary... does not hesitate to call itself illiberal and anti-liberal."
_Benito Mussolini

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The government of Nazi Germany was a fascist, totalitarian state. Totalitarian regimes, in contrast to a dictatorship, establish complete political, social, and cultural control over their subjects, and are usually headed by a charismatic leader. Fascism is a form of right-wing totalitarianism which emphasizes the subordination of the individual to advance the interests of the state. Nazi fascism's ideology included a racial theory which denigrated "non-Aryans," extreme nationalism which called for the unification of all German-speaking peoples, the use of private paramilitary organizations to stifle dissent and terrorize opposition, and the centralization of decision-making by, and loyalty to, a single leader.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 24 2002,16:44 Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

Quote (CatKnight @ 23 July 2002,09:52)
furthermore, the german people knew full well what hitler and his SS gang were doing.

Quote
from here

How did Hitler control Germany?

 Most Germans seem to have accepted Hitler's ideas, but for those who did not life could be unpleasant:
All other political parties were banned. the leaders of the Communist and Socialist parties were arrested and put in Concentration Camps. the first of these were opened in 1933. the Reichstag ceased to have any importance.
Only Nazis could become civil servants, government officials or teachers.
A People's Court was set up to try cases of treason, but this could include almost anything. It worked in secret and there was no means to appeal, except to Hitler himself.
the Nazi Party took control of every area of life in Germany. A secret police force was set up, the "Geheime Staats Polizei" (Gestapo). This was used to spy on people at all times. Germans learned to keep their mouths shut. Any sign of complaint could lead to arrest and "re-education" or to complete disappearance. In every block of flats there was a warden who checked on people's comings and goings.
the Nazis controlled all books and newspapers, films and radio programmes. Any writers, painters or composers that the Nazis did not approve of were banned. these included: Mendelssohn, a German composer who was Jewish; Van Gogh, a Dutch painter who was an impressionist; and H G Wells, a British novelist who wrote a book called "the Shape of Things to Come" in which he predicted that a Second World War would lead to the destruction of the world.

Hitler realised that if he could control what people read, looked at and listened to he could control people's ideas.

Most of the changes were introduced gradually; the worst effects only came into force during the Second World War. It was not until 1939 that Jews began to be really badly treated. At the same time most people found themselves becoming better off - wages rose, transport improved and there was more security and very little crime. Overall Germany seemed to be recovering. In 1936 the Olympic Games were held in Berlin and the Rhineland was reoccupied.


they did, but if they were to complain about it, they would disappear from their beds never to be seen again.

that's how hitler kept germany in line. withstupid.gif

Edited by Dysorderia on Jan. 01 1970,01:00

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Sir? May I recommend I load myself into the reverse-thrust tubes and you use my body as decoy-fodder? This will, of course leave me splattered across deep space and unable to complete today's laundry, for which I apologise in advance.

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