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| Post Number: 41
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CatKnight 
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 24 2002,21:34 |
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ic0n0 from now on would you please post your sources instead of copying the entire article.
the main difference between nazi facism and soviet socialism is that in germany, the corporations still owned their buisnesses, they were just run by the state through extreme political control. property rights and individual liberty was considered unnesscessary and even evil, the good of the state was paramount. here is a good excerpt:
| Quote (THE OMINOUS PARALLELS @ Leonard Peikoff) | "The higher interests involved in the life of the whole," said Hitler in a 1933 speech, "must here set the limits and lay down the duties of the interests of the individual." Men, echoed the Nazis, have to "realize that the State is more important than the individual, that individuals must be willing and ready to sacrifice themselves for Nation and Fuhrer." The people, said the Nazis, "form a true organism," a "living unity", whose cells are individual persons. In reality, therefore -- appearances to the contrary notwithstanding -- there is no such thing as an "isolated individual" or an autonomous man.
Just as the individual is to be regarded merely as a fragment of the group, the Nazis said, so his possessions are to be regarded as a fragment of the group's wealth.
"Private property" as conceived under the liberalistic
economy order was a reversal of the true concept of
property [wrote Huber]. This "private property"
represented the right of the individual to manage and
to speculate with inherited or acquired property as
he pleased, without regard for the general interests...
German socialism had to overcome this "private", that
is, unrestrained and irresponsible view of property.
All property is common property. The owner is bound
by the people and the Reich to the responsible
management of his goods. His legal position is only
justified when he satisfies this responsibility to
the community.
Contrary to the Marxists, the Nazis did not advocate public ownership of the means of production. They did demand that the government oversee and run the nation's economy. The issue of legal ownership, they explained, is secondary; what counts is the issue of CONTROL. Private citizens, therefore, may continue to hold titles to property -- so long as the state reserves to itself the unqualified right to regulate the use of their property.
If "ownership" means the right to determine the use and disposal of material goods, then Nazism endowed the state with every real prerogative of ownership. What the individual retained was merely a formal deed, a content-less deed, which conferred no rights on its holder. Under communism, there is collective ownership of property DEJURE. Under Nazism, there is the same collective ownership DE FACTO. |
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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| Post Number: 42
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CatKnight
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 24 2002,21:35 |
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oh wait, that's exactly what I said before:
| Quote | | fascism is a form of socialism, except instead of getting the people to rally behind you against the rich, you get the people and the rich to rally behind you for your country. corporations were still controlled by their owners but most other things were socialized. the rest is just semantics. |
and then ic0n0 tried to argue semantics...
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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| Post Number: 43
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demonk
The other white meat
Group: Members
Posts: 800
Joined: Aug. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 24 2002,21:55 |
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Fascism and socialism are two different systems of government. Every person who has gone through some form of high school government class knows this. Yes, it may seem like splitting hairs, but those are still differences that need to be remembed. Anything thing to remember is that the two look in different directions. Fascists point to the past and say how wonderful everything USED to be and that we need that back. Socialists point to the future and say we can do much better than we are doing right now. They never really draw on the past. Of course, these are in the most pure forms of those governments. Just like the US is not a true democracy or a true republic, Nazi Germany was not pure socialist or fascist. They were a mixture.
Think of it this way. On the very very very far left you have socialism. On the very very very far right you have fascism. In the middle you have, right next to each other, democracy and republic. I don't really know/care which one is on which side because they are very close to each other in the spectrum. So, you can be very much on the right side but barrow a few things from the left and thus end up inching towards the center (ok, so it's not exactly like that, but you get the idea). It's not a dichotimy, it's a continum.
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I'm just two people short of a threesome!
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| Post Number: 44
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CatKnight
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 24 2002,22:50 |
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ah, you have just showed off your ignorance. facism is not is NOT IS NOT on the right! The further right you go, the more individual liberty you get. the furthest to the right would be libertarian, and then anarchy. fascism is the EXACT OPPOSITE. facism is the extreme on the left's end of the political spectrum.
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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| Post Number: 45
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Beastie Dr
I will abort you.
Group: Members
Posts: 293
Joined: Apr. 2002
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Posted on: Jul. 24 2002,23:13 |
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CK, you've showed -your- ignorance, fuckwad. You basically said "facism=communism, only not." You should be fucked in the ear. I cannot believe anyone even listens to you.
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"Bladow, blazwoks!"
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| Post Number: 46
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demonk
The other white meat
Group: Members
Posts: 800
Joined: Aug. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 25 2002,00:03 |
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Sorry CK, but I'm going to listen to all my government professors and text books before I listen to you on this. I just trust their thinking process a little better. And anarchy isn't even on the spectrum I discribed. It is a lack of the entire spectrum. Need to think a little better on this CK.
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I'm just two people short of a threesome!
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| Post Number: 47
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CatKnight
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 25 2002,00:31 |
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ironic, how you call me closed-minded, yet you post that. just give me a fucking chance for one. certainly you shouldn't believe everything/anything I say at face value, but what makes you think your teachers and textbooks are unbiased? they are probably far more biased then I am, believe it or not. I can tell you stories about my history/polisci teachers in high school if you like.
| Quote | | You basically said "facism=communism, only not." |
well I didn't actually say that, but that is pretty close. they are not equal but they are very related to each other, facism being a government type that is associated with a communist economic system. thanks for your continued idiocy, you've provided me with much enjoyment yet again.
| Quote | | And anarchy isn't even on the spectrum I discribed. It is a lack of the entire spectrum. |
why don't YOU think about this one a little better, demonk? how is anarchy a "lack of spectrum"? that doesn't even make sense, the spectrum is a list of government types ranging from highly controlled to no control. anarchy means no government, facism means total government. it's quite simple.
just think about it this way, you agree that conservatives are hardcore against the democrats, right? and you agree that the democrats are almost exclusively in favor of government programs and regulations, correct? facism is a system where the government controls literally everything. democrats are obviously not in favor of facism, but they go in that direction. conservatives are just the opposite, conservatives are for less government, and are whole-heartedly against facism in every sense. democrats are just against facism because saying "we're for facism!" is not exactly the best way to get elected. in fact, that is why democrats sometimes call conservatives "facists", they just use it as an insult. if you know the truth, then you can see how rediculous that is.
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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| Post Number: 48
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Beastie Dr
I will abort you.
Group: Members
Posts: 293
Joined: Apr. 2002
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Posted on: Jul. 25 2002,00:38 |
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So, basically, you agreed with me, and then called me an idiot for stating something you agreed with. GREAT JOB, your logic is perfect once again. Also, you arrogant jizz swiller, wasn't I supposed to get one post?
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"Bladow, blazwoks!"
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| Post Number: 49
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demonk
The other white meat
Group: Members
Posts: 800
Joined: Aug. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 25 2002,00:51 |
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CK, I did have an open mind. I read your posts, and I disagreed with your logic and reasoning. Also, if you looked at my discription, the spectrum is not total government on one and and no government on the other. If it was, I would have said that.
Think of it as a capital U with the hight indicated how much personal freedom each citizen has taken away. On the left side, at the vary top, you have socialism (state more important than everyone, all production done by government, doesn't think past is any good). On the right side, at the vary top, you have fascism(industry still private owned, but controled by small group of people, thinks past is the most important). In the middle you have Democracy (Everyone votes on every decision of the government) and Republic (only representatives are allowed to vote on government decisions).
The convservative are on the right, the liberals on the left. Stray too far from the middle, and you start taking people's rights away (no matter which direction you go). It's easy for you to see how more left-wing legislation could remove peoples' rights to chose to do things. But you are having a hard time seeing how going to the right will also do this. Example, you remove environment protection laws, and industries are free to polute as much as they want. Soon, the water is undrinkable. People have had the right to clean drinking water removed from them. Now, if you legislate too many laws or make them unreasonable, you remove the right of the companies to produce goods, which the people want. See, both directions lead to bad things.
As far as anarchy is concerned, think of it as the floor AND the ceiling. You have absolute choice to do anything (floor=no rights taken away). But someone also has the choice to take all of your rights away (ceiling=no rights at all). The U hovers between the two. Hope I didn't blow your mind with all this complex thinking CK.
btw, you are the most biased human being I have ever had a converstation with, hands down. My profs were as unbaised as was possible and showed both sides to everything. You just goto a shitty school with shitty profs.
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I'm just two people short of a threesome!
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| Post Number: 50
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CatKnight
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 25 2002,00:57 |
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| Quote | | On the very very very far left you have socialism. On the very very very far right you have fascism. In the middle you have, right next to each other, democracy and republic. |
gee it sure sounded to me like you were talking about government systems and not political ideology, with all those big words like socialism, democracy, republic, and facism! when i was describing the right of the government spectrum, i sohuldn't have said libertarian, i should have said libertarian-style government or something.
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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