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| Post Number: 11
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Wolfguard 
Flyswatter of the Apocalypse
Group: Members
Posts: 1696
Joined: May 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 23 2002,18:18 |
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| Quote (Beldurin @ 23 July 2002,12:52) | | I semi-scientifically proved the existence of God to a buddy of mine. Wish I'd written it down, it took a lot of work to come up with. Maybe one of these days I'll get around to writing it out and post it just to piss you guys off. |
like i can prove god cant be trusted using only the "facts" at hand.
god created adam and eve and put them in the garden. Told them not to eat the fruit of this one tree.
he turns his back for a few minutes and eve listens to some snake and eats the fruit. eve brings some back for adam and he eats it. This proves that man can not be trusted.
since man is made in the image of god...
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Fucknuggets flamed while you wait.
[url=http://www.teamwolfguard.com]TeamWolfguard.com[/url]
"screw the fireball spells...i got a case of WP grenades and a case of teddy bears!"
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| Post Number: 12
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ic0n0
I have become Death, Destroyer of Worlds
Group: Members
Posts: 1352
Joined: Sep. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 23 2002,19:13 |
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Beldurin i would like to your proof, i mean decrates makes a good proof but it' still wrong becasue it's illogical.
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"I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time." (Isaac Asimov)
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| Post Number: 13
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ic0n0
I have become Death, Destroyer of Worlds
Group: Members
Posts: 1352
Joined: Sep. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 23 2002,19:19 |
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P1 - The cause must be at least as perfect as the effect.
P2 - The idea of God must have a cause.
P3 - The idea of God is of a perfect being.
C1 - The idea of God is itself perfect (If the idea is of something perfect, the idea itself is perfect).
P4 - I am not perfect.
C2 - I cannot be the cause of my idea of God.
C3 - Something else must exist to be the cause of my idea of God.
C4 - By P1, this thing must be at least as perfect as my idea of God.
P5 - Only God is at least as perfect as my idea of God.
C5 - God must exist.
P1 is not particularly clear in its meaning. What does "perfect" mean here? What are Descartes’ criteria for perfection in such a general proposition? And are there degrees of being perfect? Normal usage of the term "perfect" is for a quality that is instantiated or it is not, as in a perfectly straight line. Either a line is perfectly straight or it is not. We do not use the term to indicate matters of degree, hence we don’t say things like "Line A is more perfectly straight than line B." Perfection is a two-valued function, not a continuous variable. Something is either perfect in some regard (by some criteria for perfection) or it is not. We do, on the other hand, talk of degrees of imperfection, as in the degree of deviation of a curved line from a straight line. Since P1 is not clear in its meaning, it cannot be, by Descartes’ own criteria for self-evidence, self-evidently true.
P2 is, by Descartes’ Causal Principle "Something cannot come from nothing," true only if his idea of God has not come about, that is, if it has not always existed. If it has always existed, then, like Descartes’ God, it does not require a cause. To ask if Descartes’ idea of God has always existed is to ask if Descartes’ mind has always existed. Can Descartes know with certainty that his mind has not always existed? He may lack memories of such a long existence, but a lack of memory proves nothing. Descartes probably cannot remember anything from his first two years of infancy. Does that prove he didn’t exist then? And Descartes cannot make use of birth certificates, county records, testimony of his parents, and other external-to-his-mind sources because he has yet to prove the existence of a world external to his mind. Descartes has not proven that his mind and this idea of God in his mind have not always existed, so the truth status of P2 is questionable.
P3 , Descartes’ concept of God, is, for Descartes’, a self-evident given, and I suggest we give him the benefit of the doubt here and play along with him.
C1 is rather strange. Descartes is trying to show that he is not perfect enough to be the cause of his idea of God. P1 tells us that Descartes, being imperfect, cannot be the cause of anything more perfect than he, himself, is, so he certainly cannot be the cause of God. But Descartes can conclude that he cannot be the cause of his idea of God only if this idea itself is more perfect than Descartes. So the question becomes, if an idea is about something perfect, does that necessarily mean that we must, via some rule of logic, attribute perfection to the idea? How about a photograph of something perfect, say a snowflake. Is the photograph perfect because it’s topic is perfect? We don’t normally talk about ideas as being perfect (other than meaning well suited to some desired end), though we may characterize some ideas as true or correct. But does "true" always mean "perfect?" I may have the idea of a pimple on my nose, and if I actually have a pimple on my nose, then my idea is true. But, is there some rule of logic that requires I attribute perfection to my idea of the pimple on my nose? If so, I would like to know what rule of logic dictates this. Someone please tell me. Descartes hasn’t. I haven’t come across any such rule in the philosophical literature. Now, I might chose to call true ideas perfect ideas. I’m free to do so if I want to for some reason, but am I logically bound to do so? I might call ideas of perfect forms perfect ideas, but am I logically bound to do so or is this just a matter of semantics, that is, how you or I or Descartes chooses to use to word "perfect" in relation to ideas?
Even if we were to feel compelled to attribute perfection to such ideas, does that necessarily mean that the possessor of such ideas is less perfect than the ideas themselves? Presumably, Descartes could exist without such ideas in his mind, but could they exist without his mind? And if one thing exists dependently upon another but the latter thing exists independently of the former thing, then is not the independent thing more perfect (of a less conditional existence) than the dependent thing? Descartes often reasons in just this way. For Descartes, actual existence is more perfect than existence merely as an idea. Indeed, Descartes’ third proof of God’s existence depends on this. Since Descartes, though imperfect, is at least as real as any of his ideas, perhaps he is also at least as perfect as any of his ideas. Can he be sure otherwise?
P4, I, "Descartes, am not perfect." I suggest we agree with Descartes on this one. (I know I’m not perfect.)
C2,"I cannot be the cause of my idea of God." This conclusion follows from P4, P1 and C1. Since there is uncertainly in P1 and C1, there is uncertainty in C2 and everything else that follows, including C5 ,"God must exist." (An argument is only as strong as its weakest link.) While God might exist and might be the cause of Descartes’ idea of God, Descartes fails to prove that this must be so.
Edited by ic0n0 on Jan. 01 1970,01:00
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"I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time." (Isaac Asimov)
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| Post Number: 14
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Beldurin
Mayor of Detnet
Group: Members
Posts: 1242
Joined: Aug. 2001
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Posted on: Jul. 23 2002,19:36 |
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ic0n0, you rock.
I simply used the scientific principle of disproving the opposite of what you're trying to prove, so I went about detailing the absurdity of the theory that everything leading up to the development of an organism that can question the nature of its own existence is an accident.
I'm not exactly Descartes
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If someone's ungrateful and you tell him he's ungrateful, okay, you've called him a name.
You haven't solved anything.
-- zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance
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| Post Number: 15
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TheTaxMan
Controversial Thug
Group: Members
Posts: 874
Joined: Apr. 2001
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Posted on: Jul. 24 2002,00:34 |
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(circular reasoning)
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Four billion years of evolution and this is all we have to show for it?
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| Post Number: 16
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demonk
The other white meat
Group: Members
Posts: 800
Joined: Aug. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 24 2002,01:16 |
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Flawed assumptions.
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I'm just two people short of a threesome!
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| Post Number: 17
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Wiley
©0®ÞØ®4+3 whØ®3
Group: Members
Posts: 1268
Joined: Oct. 2001
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Posted on: Jul. 24 2002,04:49 |
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| Quote (Wolfguard @ 23 July 2002,10:18) | god created adam and eve and put them in the garden. Told them not to eat the fruit of this one tree.
he turns his back for a few minutes and eve listens to some snake and eats the fruit. eve brings some back for adam and he eats it. This proves that man can not be trusted.
since man is made in the image of god... |
This makes me think ...why was God so damn over-protective of apples and not his people? When the hell in time could snakes talk? Why didn't Adam know something was up when his chick brought him some food? And if we are all made in Gods image then do you think that he also likes hookers and beer?
And just WTFWJD?? I'm guessing he would turn some more water to wine and try to drink himself into forgetting that his dad didn't save his ass from the Romans. If Jesus was on Ricki Lake I'm sure he'd have some abandonment issues going on.
Does anybody else find it strange that the bible doesn't give anywhere near the moral insight that you find in an episode of the Simpsons?
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| Post Number: 18
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Beastie Dr
I will abort you.
Group: Members
Posts: 293
Joined: Apr. 2002
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Posted on: Jul. 24 2002,05:03 |
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"If I met Jesus, we'd drink and smoke weed together."
-Mike Tyson
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"Bladow, blazwoks!"
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| Post Number: 19
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CatKnight
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 24 2002,05:45 |
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| Quote | god created adam and eve and put them in the garden. Told them not to eat the fruit of this one tree.
he turns his back for a few minutes and eve listens to some snake and eats the fruit. eve brings some back for adam and he eats it. This proves that man can not be trusted.
since man is made in the image of god... |
being created in ones image does not imply having all the same characteristics/attributes/flaws
I have an apple.
I draw a picture of an apple, but the color is off
the picture was made in the image of the apple
by your logic, the apple's color must be off originally.
this leads to circular logic, because if the apple's color is off originally then the picture's color would not be off, etc.
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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| Post Number: 20
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demonk
The other white meat
Group: Members
Posts: 800
Joined: Aug. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 24 2002,06:18 |
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Thank you for that wonderful example in circular reasoning! That is how most of us "non believers" feel when the "believers" try to convince us. It all circular reasoning, or based on one simple idea that the Bible is completely infawlable (which has been proven wrong on many things many times). That's why we just can' accept it. We can see the holes and just can't lie to ourselves about our feelings. Personally, I would like to believe since it would make life easier to live and help in other areas. But, as Shakspear said, "To thy own self be true". I can't pretend to believe when I know deep down that I do not. That's why I'm an agnostic.
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I'm just two people short of a threesome!
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