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| Post Number: 31
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Darth Liberus 
Emperor of Detnet
Group: Members
Posts: 2246
Joined: Jan. 1970
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Posted on: Jul. 17 2002,00:28 |
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| Quote (Marauder @ 14 July 2002,19:04) | | 5.) "Creative Christians" - Think that they need to 'renovate' worship services with new music and worship norms. Big into pop Christian culture, they see the need to paste a fluffy, perfect Christianity everywhere. Most often fit into 1 or 2 as well. |
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"let's travel around with our laptops, plug in, and destroy the very fabric of modern reality." -a2n3d7y
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| Post Number: 32
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The_Stomper
300,000 dead kittens and counting!
Group: Members
Posts: 542
Joined: Sep. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 17 2002,07:37 |
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After many years of searching, I've found Jesus.
He's in my trunk.
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There is no round with your name on it. They're all labeled:
"To Whom It May Concern"
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| Post Number: 33
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Necromancer
Ace Rimmer
Group: Members
Posts: 419
Joined: Feb. 2002
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Posted on: Jul. 17 2002,17:19 |
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having grown up in a christian family i can agree that christains (the normal kind) are great to be around because they don't take the piss they're all extremly freindly and i've always felt like i'm welcome. BUT and this is a big but. i've always felt awkward because all of them assumed i belived what they did. i spent most of my life just going along with it and just avoiding all the times where you had to do the christian stuff like praying and all that stuff. going on holiday to christian camp sites was the worst because you had all these worship groups for the different age groups. we all some fun stuff but it all came round to the whole how does this relate to god thing at the end. the worst one i ever went to was in wales. they had a performance thing where you did plays poems or whatever. i chose to do some poems that for that age were damn funny. course they had to be christain related and i didnt know that so i ended up having to do a recital of that valley of death crap. (got a letter asking for me to write a prayer after i got home which i threw in the bin). they even tried to get everyone to talk in tongues which i just faked cos how can you MAKE people do that. and the worst part was some guy saying condoms didnt work exploring your sexuality was wrong. in fact sex outside your marriage was gonna make you go to hell. this guy pretty much fucked up my life by somehow calling me out of everyone else ,JUST ME to talk with him and just kept pushing me to admit i'd been bullied when i hadn't. he pushed me to tears cos i was only like 10 at the time he saw that as just me admitting that i had been. i met ONE person, ONE that i became freinds with on that entire holiday becuase he and i were the only people to not buy into all the propoganda crap they were feeding us.
so i've seen both sides of christianity. some of them are extremly dangerous because there were thousands of kids at that particlular camp site and they were all buying into the stuff they were dishing out, which was all completely different to the people from my parents church who also went who were always understanding and understood that i was too young to accept everything they were teaching the congregation. places like that have really fucked with my head and made me sceptical about a lot of things.
and it pisses me off cos i'd be quite happy to live in ignorance cos at least then mortality wouldnt be scary the shit out of me every fucking day and my head wouldnt be so screwed up.
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There'll be time for explanations later... and hopefully, some sex
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| Post Number: 34
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Marauder
Northwind Highlander
Group: Members
Posts: 75
Joined: Jun. 2002
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Posted on: Jul. 17 2002,20:52 |
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Jynx, here's where you went wrong: anything talking about the 'historical' bible is AUTOMATICALLY a modern attempt to rewrite the Bible(or portions thereof) to fit modern secular views. It's an attempt to cut down religion so that nonbelievers can cope with the idea. Never read that crap. Read the Bible, and think about what it says. It's not as twisted as people want you to believe. Heck, archeologists follow it to new finds all the time.
But yeah, a lot of the sentiment around here's been about the worst side of Christianity, which I feel is probably the most visible part with all the 'popular' christian stuff going on. Just remember, there are the people who are serious about it, and they dislike some of the new stuff just as badly as you do.
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I'm a Mechwarrior enthusiast - I insist that no one may have a fight without a 20+ ton walking war machine. It's just not civilized.
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| Post Number: 35
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Jynx
resident n0b0dy
Group: Members
Posts: 333
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 17 2002,22:00 |
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Marauder - actually, I am reading the Bible, and it's really the only reference for me - been through the NT about twice, and working my way through the OT. Here is my basic dilemma, in fun conversational format:
Christian: Don't you see that Christianity is right?
Me: Why?
Christian: The Bible is a perfect set of documents, describing the absolute love of an unchanging God, and his son.
Me: Perfect, huh?
Christian: Yes, and therefore divinely inspired - no human has yet to make a book without at least a few mistakes. Besides, read and pray, and you will feel His power.
Me: Wow. Okay.
::Time passes, I enter the church, read and stuff.::
Me: Well, I like most of what is said here, but....
Christian: Your doubts come from the Devil! Read and pray, and they will go away.
Me: But wait - you can only go to heaven if you're a Christian, right? And some people even feel that you can only go to heaven if you're baptized in this faith, right?
Christian: That's right. Everyone gets exposure to Our Christianity at least once in their life, so everyone has a chance to be saved.
Me (thinks): Yeah, right.
::More time passes, as my doubts rise.::
My basic problem is this: Christianity is based on the idea that the Bible is an accurate historical document relating the life and miracles of the Children of Israel, and then Jesus. However, if you read the link that I previously posted, you will find two major problems:
- many events in the Bible do not coincide with actual historical evidence. This includes the fact that there is no solid evidence, outside of the Bible, that Jesus existed in the biblical form. The link has much more on this.
- The Bible is not without several errata. So, the position that I assumed was true (since everyone in the faith believed it), that the Bible was flawless, is a false one. Therefore, to me, a very large cornerstone of my faith has been removed.
Gotta get back to work, more on this subject later. In the meantime, I await any and all comments with baited breath.
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| Post Number: 36
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Necromancer
Ace Rimmer
Group: Members
Posts: 419
Joined: Feb. 2002
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Posted on: Jul. 17 2002,22:40 |
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take a leaf from the hagakure/buddism
life and death are the same thing
"every morning without fail one should consider themselves as dead"
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There'll be time for explanations later... and hopefully, some sex
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| Post Number: 37
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Marauder
Northwind Highlander
Group: Members
Posts: 75
Joined: Jun. 2002
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Posted on: Jul. 18 2002,04:38 |
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Jynx -
There really IS evidence outside the Bible. It comes from(If I recall correctly) a greek or roman who was running kind of a chronicle of his times. His name was Josephus, and he mentions the Christians at least, if not Christ himself. Also, manuscripts we have show Roman officials referring to a riots revolving around the death of a 'Chrestus,' which could be Christ. So yeah, there's some around. Not that the people going for the 'historical' truth would consider them.
Seems you're looking at scripture. I think that's really cool, since most people don't look that far into things. Since you're looking into it that hard, perhaps I can offer advice.
Talk to someone about it, and make a real informed decision.
;----Advice----
As for your comment on 'everybody must be a christian and gets exposed' conflict, that bothered me too. Or it did, until recently. There's some stuff in Romans that makes me think that God's a bit more pragmatic about things than that, but it's not very clear exactly what they mean.
And to the contact with the difficult-to-stand christian from your examples, perhaps you're going to the wrong ones. Remember that there's a lot of denominations and groups; you can pick and choose. Weigh what they say and hwo they really are, etc.
If you're looking for help looking at the scripture, remember to talk to a teacher in a church, and somebody who you can probably stand. We don't all know too much about the scriptures themselves, and teachers probably have better answers and know better where to find them(They'll be tickled pink that you came to talk to them for help on it). As for help scripturally, I'd recommend looking up the denomination that I attend. They tend to be scripture-oriented thinkers, and a bit less...crazy. I can't vouch for every congregation, since some churches that claim the denomination's name teach radically different stuff, but check out the Church of Christ denomination if you're looking into it. And the teacher bit's important. And don't let people tell you how to think of things(not that I think you would), but ask for help on topics and interpretations on certain verses; line up your questions, list them if you want. And go in thinking.
;---No More Advice----
Okay, I'm through bugging you with that.
But if the Bible is perfect for us, I'll eat my hat. It's tough stuff, and even the most knowledgable professors at my private college can't even claim to be able to tell you everything. And I've got one so old, I'd swear he was there when Paul was writing... 
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I'm a Mechwarrior enthusiast - I insist that no one may have a fight without a 20+ ton walking war machine. It's just not civilized.
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| Post Number: 38
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Jynx
resident n0b0dy
Group: Members
Posts: 333
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 19 2002,00:48 |
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Marauder -
First off, I appreciate the conversation. Second off, I would respectfully request that you check out that link, really -- among other things, it lists several very good books on the matter.
To attend to your points:
Josephus is the name you're looking for. Lemme quote for you:
| Quote | | ...the only somewhat reliable, secular evidence we have for the life of Jesus comes from two very brief passages in the works of Josephus, a first-century Jewish historian. And Josephus was a prolific writer - he frequently wrote several pages on the trial and execution of individual common thieves, but on Jesus, he is silent except for two paragraphs, one of which is a known interpolation, and the other is highly suspect. |
Another point is made, very interesting as well:
| Quote | | There are no references to Jesus in any of the Roman histories during his presumed lifetime. That he should be so thoroughly ignored is unlikely given the impact the gospel writers said he had on the events and politics of the Jewish kingdom. |
Despite my desire to believe, this hard evidence is difficult to ignore.
My issue is with Christianity in general, not one particular group. My issue with talking to any priest or minister is that I'm concerned about bias. My experience, based on several encounters with different faiths is that I will be told in some form that faith is the answer. Well, what use is faith when reliable evidence is at best ambiguous and at worst contradictory?
Here is my basic line of thinking right now:
- Christianity, as a religion, is based on and validated solely by the "Truth" found in the Bible.
- Therefore, if the Bible is a valid document, Christianity has at least some validity to it.
- For the Bible to be valid, key events should agree between authors who are talking about the same person or event at the same time.
- Certain key points are directly contradictory, both in the Old Testament and the New Testament. Lists are available at multiple sources.
- Since I have read directly contradictory accounts, I cannot accept the Bible as a valid historical document.
- Since the Bible is not a valid historical document, the source and validity of Christianity as a religion is no longer valid.
I'm not saying that Christianity is not helpful; there are indeed many inspirational stories that it gives us. My issue is with people telling me how to run my life, and using the Bible as their "proof".
Now, on the subject of scripture: What good is it, really? If it gives us a picture of God, that doesn't help us. After all, depending on where you look, God is wrathful and violent, He is distant and unknowable, or He is merciful and loving. If His nature changes, and/or is unpredictable, how does reading the scripture help? If it's a set of instructions, what do we do when these instructions are directly contradictory (again, I can provide examples)?
So. I assume, Marauder (and others, if you wish), that you Believe. To continue the discussion, I pose a question: Is the Old Testament truth, or fiction?
I await the stimulating conversation of any interested. 
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| Post Number: 39
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Marauder
Northwind Highlander
Group: Members
Posts: 75
Joined: Jun. 2002
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Posted on: Jul. 21 2002,20:32 |
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I think I'm willing to say that it's the most realiable document covering that time period. And I know it's the most reliable I've read, not that that says too much.
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I'm a Mechwarrior enthusiast - I insist that no one may have a fight without a 20+ ton walking war machine. It's just not civilized.
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| Post Number: 40
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Crafty Butcher
My legs! My legs! I can't feel my legs
Group: Members
Posts: 100
Joined: Nov. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 22 2002,18:17 |
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| Quote (Marauder @ 21 July 2002,20:32) | | I think I'm willing to say that it's the most realiable document covering that time period. And I know it's the most reliable I've read, not that that says too much. |
the bible, no matter what anyone wants you to think is NOT a historical document. it is essentially a political/religious manifesto. it's as biased as republican press release. it is not reliable by any accepted definition of that word. there are roman scholars of the time who's stated purpose at the time was to record history (admittedly a couple of hundred years later once the facts in question had been settled) and THEY aren't considered reliable as they could have been influenced by the Roman state which at the time was still Hellenist. so a bunch of card carrying extremists reliable? bollocks more like.
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even if his brain wasn't mush - which it is - he chewed out his own tongue a long time ago
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