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| Post Number: 21
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Wiley 
©0®ÞØ®4+3 whØ®3
Group: Members
Posts: 1268
Joined: Oct. 2001
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Posted on: Jul. 02 2002,15:25 |
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| Quote (demonk @ 01 July 2002,21:09) | | If we give more to the rich, their spending habits change so little, it's just a waste! If we take the money we would have given to one rich family, and spread it evenly around programs that help educate and train the poor, we could have tens if not hundreds of families spending more money on groceries, cars, and taxes because they were able to get better jobs and earn more income. |
Not true. Some of the taxes I have a problem with are capital gains taxes and taxes on bonus income. Capital gains taxes punish investors who are activly improving the economy by providing capital for companies to aquire materials and labor ...ie hire workers. The high tax on bonus income (45%) keeps most of the money from going into the consumer marketplace where it can do much more good for the economy. Instead it goes to fund more stupid programs to get money into the economy ...think about it ...you are taking liquid currency and funneling it into a program to get more liquid currency out into the marketplace. Why not just let the money go out on it's own? Save the government overhead costs.
| Quote | | If we take the money we would have given to one rich family, and spread it evenly around programs that help educate and train the poor, we could have tens if not hundreds of families spending more money on groceries, cars, and taxes because they were able to get better jobs and earn more income. |
Here's where I see the problem. Those jobs that these newly trained people are going to get don't exist. Why don't they exist? Because there is not enough stimulas in the marketplace to warrent the hiring of additional labor. But we could stimulate the economy by letting people have access to more disposable income ...ie lower taxes!.
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| Post Number: 22
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demonk
The other white meat
Group: Members
Posts: 800
Joined: Aug. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 02 2002,16:33 |
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You all make good points. When I said they can get better jobs, I mean the we don't have to go over seas to find workers. I see it all the time, companies having to go overseas to higher people to do more technical jobs, because there just isn't enough people HERE who have the knowledge to do them. If we could improve the education, maybe we could get the companies to higher more people at home. Of course, this is just one example. It's hard to think linearly before I've finished my first cup of coffee 
My main complaint with trickle down is that there is nothing making the rich reinvest. They will reinvest if they want to. That 4 million they got back on taxes (which mean they must be making $10 million+ a year to get a refund that big) doesn't have to be spent on the company. They may just view this as another house or an expensive trip to Eurpose. Point is, it is only invested again if the person is greedy. Once you get to that level of income and spending, an extra million or two will not drasticly change their lives. It would be like me giving you $50. You would say thank you, then go out and buy something fun for yourself, and that would be the end of that money. Now, what if I could spend that $50 to help you find a better job? Then you would be able to make $50 honestly more often, which you could spend or could save for a larger purchase, such as a house or a car. Multiply that effect by 1000. More goods are being consumed. And you were able to find that new job because the companies would rather higher locally than have to pay relocation and other expenses it would have cost to find the employees overseas.
This is not THE answer to economic bliss. Neither is trickle down. But why not combine the two? Attack from both directions so to speak. Now all we need to do is cut back on stupid spending (StarWars comes to mind) and we have the funds.
| Quote | | The first thing I would argue is that the government only has the money to tax for what it must provide, and the 'surplus' is keyword for: "We overcharged everyone," and that to me means it's time to refund people's money. |
But it wasn't a surplus. We had places that money was needed, such as paying of the national debt or improving our schools to a level that everyone can agree on. Just because they had more money than they needed AT THE MOMENT doesn't mean that they collected more than was needed to provide what everyone needed. (does that make sense to anyone?). I'll give an example. If the transportation department has been functioning at a level of income of X for 10 years, and suddenly they get an income slightly higher, say Y, does that mean they must give the money back? Why couldn't they keep that money and fix some of the roads that are OK, but will need repair soon? And what if making the repairs now is cheaper? What if having the money to make the repair in the future isn't guarented? My point is, they have the money NOW, they can fix something NOW. Who knows what the future holds for us and our economy. Use what you have to do what needs to be done (and that means more than just maintaining the status quo).
/me puts on flame/CK retardent clothing, grabs coffee, and waits.
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I'm just two people short of a threesome!
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| Post Number: 23
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kuru
Detonate.net's 9mm wielding geek-hit-Goddess
Group: Members
Posts: 2566
Joined: Aug. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 02 2002,19:06 |
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Part of the reason that corporations put their manufacturing and other plants overseas is that they're taxed to holy fuck and beyond here, and they're not being taxed hardly at all in the place they go.
Reducing taxes here would go a long way to incentive to put operations here and pay American workers.
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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost
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| Post Number: 24
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demonk
The other white meat
Group: Members
Posts: 800
Joined: Aug. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 02 2002,19:30 |
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That is very true. But just reducing taxes won't bring them back. Most of the time, the labor over there is MUCH cheaper than labor here. While many companies like Nike have gone above and beyond the norm in providing extras such as medical coverage and the such, most companies aren't required to and don't give any real benifits and the base wage is significantly less (that's because they don't have the same level of inflation that we have here in the US). Just reducing property taxes and such here might make it cheaper to build the factory here in the US, it still won't make actually producing the product cheap enough to make them move home.
My example I was using was more about moving the workers from other countries here, such as in technical jobs. You goto a company like Intel and you will see a very high percentage of the employees in the most technical of areas are from other countries. There are more people overseas with the training needed, so companies like Intel are forced to look outside the US for employees. When they get here, they get paid normally and get all the same benifits. Now, wouldn't it be nice if we could hire more locally? There are plenty of people in this country right now that want a good, honest job, but just lack the training and knowledge to do them. This is the level of work I'm referring to, not the factory workers. It takes almost no training or intelligence to work in a factory making widgets. The poor/low income people in our country could get those jobs today if they didn't want to work for much, but that is illegal and not practical (inflation again). We don't really need to train a person to be a garbage man. We need to train them to be programers, engineers, managers, etc, etc. That's the level I'm talking about.
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I'm just two people short of a threesome!
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| Post Number: 25
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CatKnight
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 02 2002,19:54 |
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I'm still laughing at DSL for getting all pissed that wix "turned against him", and then started flaming everyone. hehe
thanks professor kuru for your brilliant economic insight.
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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| Post Number: 26
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kuru
Detonate.net's 9mm wielding geek-hit-Goddess
Group: Members
Posts: 2566
Joined: Aug. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 02 2002,20:04 |
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Do you have anything to say that is on topic and not a personal attack?
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kuru
'dancing is the vertical expression of horizontal desire.'
-robert frost
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| Post Number: 27
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CatKnight
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 02 2002,20:10 |
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nope im fine
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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| Post Number: 28
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Darth Liberus
Emperor of Detnet
Group: Members
Posts: 2246
Joined: Jan. 1970
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Posted on: Jul. 02 2002,22:09 |
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thanks, kuru.
CK, I am not mad at Wix for "turning" on me. I flamed him for insinuating that I've been brainwashed by demagogues and bad college professors, as well as for telling me that my love for people is "false."
note that my area of concentration was Victorian literature, so I am quite familiar with the Industrial Revolution and laissez-faire economics. It was NOT a grand ol' time by any means, not unless you like choking pollution, abject poverty, miserable working conditions, and your country constantly being on the brink of revolution.
on the economic issue, it seems to me that trickle-down mostly encourages a bunch of shell games and smoke and mirrors. that's the reason it's nicknamed "Vodoo Economics"... a term coined by none other than George "Poppy" Bush.
trickle-down policies encourage investors put their money into the stock and money markets, and the rapid acquisition, breakup, and sale of companies. the money doesn't trickle down, it just moves around between investors.
to create wealth, you actually have to PRODUCE something. this means you need to have policies that encourage investment in production rather than just moving money around.
can I ask why there's all this love for trickle-down? There's dozens of other viable economic theories out there, some conservative, some liberal, some apolitical.
on the tax issue - a lot of loopholes including the one that allows companies to move their headquarters to the Bahamas to evade taxes are about to close. they don't move because we tax the holy fuck out of them. they move because they can get away with it... they just have to get a P.O. box in the Bahamas, move their "headquarters" there, and then kick back & do business in the United States without paying a single dime in taxes.
Edited by Darth Liberus on Jan. 01 1970,01:00
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"let's travel around with our laptops, plug in, and destroy the very fabric of modern reality." -a2n3d7y
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| Post Number: 29
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CatKnight
Jedi Republican
Group: Members
Posts: 3807
Joined: Dec. 2000
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Posted on: Jul. 03 2002,00:22 |
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| Quote | | It was NOT a grand ol' time by any means, not unless you like choking pollution, abject poverty, miserable working conditions, and your country constantly being on the brink of revolution. |
lol are you comparing the industrial age to the information age and with perfect 20-20 hindsight saying "wow things really sucked back then!" ?
edited bad grammer. bled stupid summer classes
Edited by CatKnight on Jan. 01 1970,01:00
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[url=http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/d/b/dbl125/dfa.jpg]If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful that you can possibly imagine.[/url]
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| Post Number: 30
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BlackFlag
Objections noted; Notes discarded.
Group: Members
Posts: 637
Joined: Jan. 2002
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Posted on: Jul. 03 2002,00:47 |
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I used to listen to Rush religiously. He would say invariably at least once a broadcast (usually at great length, and with supporting examples) something to the effect of "My views are skewed, but unlike mainstream 'news', I admitt it."
He doesn't claim to be unbiased. He just claims to be informative.
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[img]http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze327zx/pissed.gif[/img]
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