Topic: Congress pays attention!
started by: damien_s_lucifer
Posted by damien_s_lucifer on Jun. 03 2002,22:23
< Congress to investigate FBI and CIA >including whether or not the new powers assumed by the FBI/CIA violate civil rights (hint: the answer is "definately".)
Posted by Pravus Angelus on Jun. 03 2002,22:54
One can't help but notice that the congress investigating the CIA & FBI just so happens to be the same congress that passed the PATRIOT act that granted them all these new powers in the first place....hmmmmm...
Posted by Wiley on Jun. 03 2002,23:14
Yeah ....wait a second. What are they trying to pull? I think it is all just smoke and mirrors to cover up the fact that they forced Fox to stop any further production of X-Files ...they're trying to deflect our own investigations into the FBI/CIA underworld.Seriously though, your damned if you do and damned if you don't here. FBI/CIA needs fewer restrictions to hunt down terrorists, but you know that will lead to civil liberties being violated. I mean, it's a bit tough to tourcher the info outta some terrorist without violating his rights.
Posted by Pravus Angelus on Jun. 03 2002,23:34
| Quote |
< http://www.reason.com/0203/fe.jw.panic.shtml > And then there’s the hefty "USA PATRIOT Act" -- an Orwellian law deserves an Orwellian name -- which, among many other things, permits secret searches and warrantless Internet surveillance, allows authorities to hold foreign nationals without trial, gives police access to accused terrorists’ phone records (again without a warrant), requires retailers to report "suspicious" customer transactions to the Treasury Department, and expands the definition of terrorist to include such nonlethal acts as computer hacking. In mid-November, President Bush took this expansion of executive power a step further, declaring unilaterally that accused terrorists can be tried in secret by special military tribunals. |
Those are liberty infringements I'd be concerned over. While I agree the CIA & FBI need the freedom to do their job, much of the criticism is that they failed to piece information together -- if that's the problem, there's obviously no need to expand their information gathering powers...
Posted by CatKnight on Jun. 04 2002,01:59
I don't think there is anything wrong with spying on our enemies in our own country in public places.
Posted by demonk on Jun. 04 2002,02:38
Have you read the PATRIOT ACT CK? It doesn't just make it easier to track terrorists in our borders. It makes it hundreds of times easier for them to spy on ANYONE!
Posted by CatKnight on Jun. 04 2002,04:18
I don't think there is anything wrong with spying on enemies within our own boarders in public or private places. It is the equivalent of the CIA spying on the KGB. The KGB doesn't have civil rights to protect them from us...
Posted by demonk on Jun. 04 2002,05:03
Actually, it's more like turning the CIA and FBI into the next KGB. If memmory serves me correctly, the citizens had pretty much no protection from the KGB since all their activites were legal. If the only target of these new powers where terrorists, then yes, it would be good and bad people would be caught. But the wording of the law allows even peole just suspected of a connection to terrorists to be spied on. Now, it's damn simple to show suspision, so practicly everyone is a target. And the scary things is, the checks and balances are removed. The FBI and CIA don't have to answer to another branch like it used to. Kind of defeats the ideas of the founding fathers, now doesn't it.
Posted by CatKnight on Jun. 04 2002,05:24
I don't think illegal aliens, who are here soley to blow up stuff, deserve the same civil rights as united states citizens. the kgb fucked their own civilians who were trying to overturn the government. we are trying to supress terrorists who are trying to murder civilians.I do share your concern about their power getting out of hand and being used for anything other then preventing terrorism, however.
Posted by demonk on Jun. 04 2002,06:50
Yes another cold day in hell! CK and I agree on something again!
Posted by kuru on Jun. 04 2002,12:11
You know, I'm really sick of hearing all this 'profiling' shit.We know for a fact that all of the hijackers were middle eastern Muslims (most of them from Saudi Arabia) that practiced a particularly racist and nasty form of Islam called Wahaabi.
If the FBI and the CIA want to track middle eastern Muslims at flight schools, touring nuclear reactors, scubadiving around heavily trafficked bridges and tunnels, then by all means, fucking go for it.
If they want to monitor 'Death to America' websites to see if some schmuck is posting messages about how they plan to kill all westerners, then happy hunting boys.
We find out NOW that if the FBI and CIA had shared proper information and actually paid attention to what they did have, we would've had several of the hijackers in jail before 11 Sept. We would've been on the lookout for illegal aliens from the middle east or middle eastern men on student visas at US flight schools... men who didn't want to learn to take off or land planes, just to aim them like missiles.
A little fucking racial profiling on 10 Sept could've meant 11 Sept was just another Tuesday.
Posted by CatKnight on Jun. 04 2002,20:26
one of the big problems with illegal aliens is the INS. they are totally incompetent. if the INS did their job, the FBI wouldn't have to.
Posted by Pravus Angelus on Jun. 07 2002,04:51
Kuru I don't think anybody was talking about racial profiling. The issues with the PATRIOT act are things like disregarding the 4th amendment (sec 213), or allowing the FBI to force ISPs to hand over internet tracking information without a warrant! (secs 210, 211). See sec 217 for more government spying without even a court order.< http://www.eff.org/Privacy....ll.html > <-- now that looks like domestic terrorism!
Posted by demonk on Jun. 07 2002,06:14
That's why I dislike this act sooooo much! It's removing pieces of the Bill Of Rights! It doesn't just come out and remove them, but it bypasses a lot of the spirt of the laws. The whole purpose behind things like the 4th amendment was to prevent government agents from just coming over and randomly searching your home. But now, all it takes is the agents to "think" there is a reason to search your place, and they don't even have to tell you. Hell, they could come in and search your house and leave without you ever knowing, at it will all be legal! WTF!!!!!
Posted by Bozeman on Jun. 07 2002,07:23
< http://salon.com/comics/tomo/2002/04/01/tomo/index.html >
Posted by CatKnight on Jun. 07 2002,18:30
heh
Posted by kuru on Jun. 07 2002,18:52
I read the PATRIOT Act. It's not the piece of salvation some are calling it, but nor is it the devil that the doomsdayers think it is.It's yet another thing that will make some people feel good, some people feel afraid, and most people feel nothing.
Posted by CatKnight on Jun. 07 2002,18:55
three cheers for apathy!...
yay...
Posted by kuru on Jun. 07 2002,19:40
Have you actually read the whole thing?Not just an editorial on it, but the actual law itself?
Posted by Pravus Angelus on Jun. 07 2002,19:52
Personally, no I haven't read the entire thing. But I have read the sections I mentioned, which do have the implications I was worried about. Quite frankly, that's more than enough for me to want the bill canned. I like the 4th ammendment.
Posted by wix on Jun. 12 2002,08:49
Okay you see, this is what I love about congress. They setup the CIA statutory concept of plausable denability, then get upset when the CIA does something illegal. They fund the FBI, create it's jurisdiction, authorize it's wiretappings, setup the statues, and when the FBI does what it's told to do by law (read: what congress told them to do), it's time for congress to investigate the alleged 'abuse.' Fascinating creatures them politicians. If they want to investigate someone, they need to investigate themselves-- during these hearings I bet you the question of if the FBI is execeeding it's statutory powers will never even be brought up, mostly because these 'so called abuses' are created by the people investigating them.History:
Congress investigates the IRS for making things too complex (umm, now was it the IRS who made it complicated, or the IRS trying to follow the 1.6 million lines of tax code passed by congress?) ... The pentagon ... the CIA ... the INS... hmm...